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I take away "the NSA is full of the kind of person who won't look at the big picture, who will follow orders without exercising critical thinking, and who can b

I take away "the NSA is full of the kind of person who won't look at the big picture, who will follow orders without exercising critical thinking, and who can be counted upon to be a Good German." That is exactly right. Employees of intelligence agencies are selected primarily for loyalty, not critical thinking. Most people find that hard to believe, especially those inside who tend to have a very high opinion of themselves. In intelligence, recruiting independent minds is a mistake.

tmzt 13y ago
It feels like saying Bletchley Park just needed more diligent and loyal crib workers and they would have solved the Enigma. Without Turing and the Bombe where would we all be?
- jessaustin 13y ago
  Yeah well back then we had actual opponents. North Korea are crackpots, and some fundamentalists prefer living with goats in caves to comfortable air travel, but never in a million years will those cranks be the threat that the Axis or even the Soviets were.
  - f00_ 13y ago
    Obviously North Korea isn't near the threat of the Soviets/Axis, but I'd say they have a very real capability to destabilize, at the very least, the Korean Peninsula (non-violent dissolution), and at the most all of SE Asia (A nuclear attack/violent dissolution)
  - PeterisP 13y ago
    Do you believe that China isn't a worthy enough competitor in electronic espionage? Or the occasionally conflicting interests with Russia and other countries? The main job of NSA isn't to support short-term military operations in whatever location they're fighting today, they have to ensure that if they suddenly need to focus on country X, then they already have years/decades worth of collected intelligence.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - CamperBob2 13y ago
      And of course, what you say about "country X" also applies to "individual Y," doesn't it? How convenient.
aet 13y ago
How do you know this?
- samstave 13y ago
  There was an article about how they prefer to hire Mormons. It was interesting because this was before it was revealed that the largest NSA DC was to be built in Utah.
  - scintill76 13y ago
    Wow, way to throw an entire religion under the bus to "prove" that the NSA is only looking for mindless zealots. I have heard intelligence and law enforcement agencies like Mormons for things like being bilingual (many have learned a second language while serving a two-year mission full-time) and being drug- and alcohol -free. Disclosure: I'm a Mormon. I can't blame people too much for thinking we are all unquestioningly loyal zombies, but I think we all know it's not really a fair point if you're trying to make a logical argument.
    - samstave 13y ago
      You clearly missed the part of my comment that said "there was an article that said". - I am in no way throwing anyone under the bus. I'm on mobile - but I have posted the article here before. If I remember later Ill find it and provide you the link
      - scintill76 13y ago
        The article is basically irrelevant. Someone said intelligence agencies select "primarily for loyalty, not critical thinking." Someone else wondered how this can be known. You said because they like to hire Mormons. (Maybe you didn't mean "because", but I can't imagine any other implied connection between the post you replied to and your own.) See why it's offensive? at least without well-cited statistics demonstrating that many Mormons are more loyal than average and will not think critically if following an authority figure? It's like someone said banks value greed, and you answered "Yeah, because I read an article that they prefer to hire Jews." I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into your post. In context, you were taking it as read that Mormons are known "primarily for loyalty, not critical thinking" (not your quote, but from grandparent post) and assuming that is the only conceivable reason a government agency could want to have them. I doubt that a well-written article you read used that kind of presumptuous, circular logic. It probably just said intelligence agencies like to hire Mormons.

tmzt 13y ago

It feels like saying Bletchley Park just needed more diligent and loyal crib workers and they would have solved the Enigma. Without Turing and the Bombe where would we all be?

jessaustin 13y ago
Yeah well back then we had actual opponents. North Korea are crackpots, and some fundamentalists prefer living with goats in caves to comfortable air travel, but never in a million years will those cranks be the threat that the Axis or even the Soviets were.
- f00_ 13y ago
  Obviously North Korea isn't near the threat of the Soviets/Axis, but I'd say they have a very real capability to destabilize, at the very least, the Korean Peninsula (non-violent dissolution), and at the most all of SE Asia (A nuclear attack/violent dissolution)
- PeterisP 13y ago
  Do you believe that China isn't a worthy enough competitor in electronic espionage? Or the occasionally conflicting interests with Russia and other countries? The main job of NSA isn't to support short-term military operations in whatever location they're fighting today, they have to ensure that if they suddenly need to focus on country X, then they already have years/decades worth of collected intelligence.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - CamperBob2 13y ago
    And of course, what you say about "country X" also applies to "individual Y," doesn't it? How convenient.

aet 13y ago

How do you know this?

samstave 13y ago
There was an article about how they prefer to hire Mormons. It was interesting because this was before it was revealed that the largest NSA DC was to be built in Utah.
- scintill76 13y ago
  Wow, way to throw an entire religion under the bus to "prove" that the NSA is only looking for mindless zealots. I have heard intelligence and law enforcement agencies like Mormons for things like being bilingual (many have learned a second language while serving a two-year mission full-time) and being drug- and alcohol -free. Disclosure: I'm a Mormon. I can't blame people too much for thinking we are all unquestioningly loyal zombies, but I think we all know it's not really a fair point if you're trying to make a logical argument.
  - samstave 13y ago
    You clearly missed the part of my comment that said "there was an article that said". - I am in no way throwing anyone under the bus. I'm on mobile - but I have posted the article here before. If I remember later Ill find it and provide you the link
    - scintill76 13y ago
      The article is basically irrelevant. Someone said intelligence agencies select "primarily for loyalty, not critical thinking." Someone else wondered how this can be known. You said because they like to hire Mormons. (Maybe you didn't mean "because", but I can't imagine any other implied connection between the post you replied to and your own.) See why it's offensive? at least without well-cited statistics demonstrating that many Mormons are more loyal than average and will not think critically if following an authority figure? It's like someone said banks value greed, and you answered "Yeah, because I read an article that they prefer to hire Jews." I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into your post. In context, you were taking it as read that Mormons are known "primarily for loyalty, not critical thinking" (not your quote, but from grandparent post) and assuming that is the only conceivable reason a government agency could want to have them. I doubt that a well-written article you read used that kind of presumptuous, circular logic. It probably just said intelligence agencies like to hire Mormons.