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As a US citizen, I assume foreign countries (esp. China) spy on me. But I don't go around bitching about that. Why? Because the US will protect me. China cannot

by javert 13y ago

As a US citizen, I assume foreign countries (esp. China) spy on me. But I don't go around bitching about that. Why? Because the US will protect me. China cannot hurt me. On the other hand, when the US spies on me, I am much more threatened, because nobody can protect me from the US. If the US turns against me (for instance, for supporting the Tea Party), declaring me part of a "violent organization", I'm in real trouble. tl;dr compain about your own country spying on you, not other countries spying on you

jkrems 13y ago
I think you are missing a point: US (cloud) companies do business with for example European companies/customers. The leaks suggest that all data a non-US customer stores with them is fair game for being snooped by NSA etc. without any judge or due process. This turns "complain about your own country spying on you!" into "Don't do business with an American company if you care for legal protection/are not stupid". But please continue to pretend that economy is confined by national borders.
- javert 13y ago
  > The leaks suggest that all data a non-US customer stores with them is fair game for being snooped by NSA etc. without any judge or due process. I agree. > turns "complain about your own country spying on you!" into "Don't do business with an American company if you care for legal protection/are not stupid". I agree. As a US citizen, I was quite upset when my employer started mandating Gmail use, and this was before the Snowden leaks. Foreign companies are obliged not to use US cloud services, just as US companies are obliged not to use Chinese ones. That is all water under the bridge now. There is no going back. So you are not actually rebutting anything I said.
- mpyne 13y ago
  U.S. law has never been compatible with E.U. data protection law as I understand it though, even before Snowden. The Europeans can't seriously have thought the U.S. wasn't engaging in surveillance (and indeed, they did know otherwise, with ECHELON), so what can be said for that other than "caveat emptor"? Until multilateral treaties are passed dictating how one national jurisdiction will handle the data of another then every EU business using a US cloud service has just been using wishful thinking. And again, this was true even before Snowden.
makomk 13y ago
Except that unlike with China, the US is allied with some of the foreign countries spying on you and assisting them in their data collection, and quite likely even using the results of that spying themselves. Likewise, I'm in the UK which is allied with the US and assists them in spying on UK citizens.
- javert 13y ago
  And you should be fighting for the UK to break that off, because the UK is your defender. It doesn't really matter if the US spies on you as long as the UK is your defender. The US doesn't have jurisdiction there. This is all, really, a political issue. Ultimately, it is about political speech. Everything else you can simply encrypt and secure, and you should.

by javert 13y ago

jkrems 13y ago

I think you are missing a point: US (cloud) companies do business with for example European companies/customers. The leaks suggest that all data a non-US customer stores with them is fair game for being snooped by NSA etc. without any judge or due process. This turns "complain about your own country spying on you!" into "Don't do business with an American company if you care for legal protection/are not stupid". But please continue to pretend that economy is confined by national borders.

javert 13y ago
> The leaks suggest that all data a non-US customer stores with them is fair game for being snooped by NSA etc. without any judge or due process. I agree. > turns "complain about your own country spying on you!" into "Don't do business with an American company if you care for legal protection/are not stupid". I agree. As a US citizen, I was quite upset when my employer started mandating Gmail use, and this was before the Snowden leaks. Foreign companies are obliged not to use US cloud services, just as US companies are obliged not to use Chinese ones. That is all water under the bridge now. There is no going back. So you are not actually rebutting anything I said.
mpyne 13y ago
U.S. law has never been compatible with E.U. data protection law as I understand it though, even before Snowden. The Europeans can't seriously have thought the U.S. wasn't engaging in surveillance (and indeed, they did know otherwise, with ECHELON), so what can be said for that other than "caveat emptor"? Until multilateral treaties are passed dictating how one national jurisdiction will handle the data of another then every EU business using a US cloud service has just been using wishful thinking. And again, this was true even before Snowden.

makomk 13y ago

Except that unlike with China, the US is allied with some of the foreign countries spying on you and assisting them in their data collection, and quite likely even using the results of that spying themselves. Likewise, I'm in the UK which is allied with the US and assists them in spying on UK citizens.

javert 13y ago
And you should be fighting for the UK to break that off, because the UK is your defender. It doesn't really matter if the US spies on you as long as the UK is your defender. The US doesn't have jurisdiction there. This is all, really, a political issue. Ultimately, it is about political speech. Everything else you can simply encrypt and secure, and you should.