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North Vietnam did not initiate aggression, the U.S. did. In fact, the Vietnam war was an undeclared one. How ironic. The longest war was never declared official

by TriinT 17y ago

North Vietnam did not initiate aggression, the U.S. did. In fact, the Vietnam war was an undeclared one. How ironic. The longest war was never declared officially. About mistakes, let us see: - having the CIA planting a brutal, oppressive puppet government in Saigon. - when puppet government fails, invent a fictitious act of aggression, lie to the Congress, bomb South Vietnam to hell, and send in thousands of American boys to die for nothing. - years later, after 58K Americans and millions of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians have been killed, write a book saying "sorry, it was a mistake". Yeah. It's really hard to draw the line here... If there had been a threat against the U.S., then yes, decisions would have to be made, and unavoidably mistakes would have been made, unfortunately. However, in Vietnam there never was a threat to the U.S., except in the "brilliant" minds of the "domino-theorists" who never bothered to try to understand the enemy and its motivations.

gojomo 17y ago
It was a different era. Smart, diligent, well-meaning people, chosen through the best mechanisms of election and promotion available, did things we now understand were awful. It's easy to judge from here and now, but in a similar position of responsibility, are you sure you would not make equivalent mistakes either way -- too much aggression, or too much passivity? WW2, Hitler, Stalin were still the kinds of threats on people's minds -- where less than 20 years earlier failure to engage and deter early had resulted in the death of tens of millions. Communism loudly claimed it was the irresistible wave of the future and was showing the military power to make the claim credible. Soviet H-Bombs. A brutal and bloody stalemate in Korea. Tanks rolling into eastern Europe; Soviet satellites crashing into Wisconsin; nuclear missiles in Cuba! And if it hadn't been Kennedy at the helm -- it would have been Nixon! And if not LBJ -- it would have been Barry "lob a [nuke] into the bathroom of the Kremlin" Goldwater! We can chuckle at the "sorry" "mistakes" of the "domino-theorists" with as many "scare-quotes" as we like from our "comfortable" "decades-later" "safe" perspective, but the fact that there was a large consensus of smart, non-evil, "right-thinking" people behind most U.S. cold-war military actions should prompt a little humility in passing judgment. Finally, peace requires some measure of forgiveness. To imply there's still some score to settle 40 years later -- some punishment McNamara (if he were alive) and peers still deserve -- is the attitude behind never-ending war and strife.
- anamax 17y ago
  > We can chuckle at the "sorry" "mistakes" of the "domino-theorists" Umm, what "mistakes"? There was a domino plan. Yes, the "not-communists" were brutal thugs. However, the communists were, in fact, worse. (That's not to say that we opposed them in the best way, but it's also not obvious how we could have actually done significantly better.) Perfection is rarely an option, either in choosing what to do or how to do it. One can argue that this was not of our biz, but it's unclear why the same standard shouldn't apply to WWII, South Africa, the Balkans, Rwanda, Darfur, or even inner cities. There is no bright line here.
  - TriinT 17y ago
    Please. Even McNamara himself admitted that the "domino theory" was retarded. The U.S. should stop intervening in other people's business, period. Yes, the communists were brutal thugs, but it was their country and they should deal with it. They should have the freedom to make their own mistakes and pay for it with their own lives. I don't see why American boys have to pay the ultimate price to solve a crisis which does not concern them. Oh, and if the communists were brutal thugs, so were the Americans. For example, CIA's Operation Phoenix (which killed over 60,000 Vietnamese) was the bloodiest operation against political targets ever, second only to the Nazis' terror campaigns in occupied Europe. You should travel to other countries. The U.S. is perceived as the biggest thug in the world, right now. There's no moral high ground after Uncle Sam's thugs butchered so many innocent people overseas.
    - anamax 17y ago
      > I don't see why American boys have to pay the ultimate price to solve a crisis which does not concern them. Fair enough, but where is this line? I asked about WWII, but there are plenty of other instances where US got involved or folks argued that we should have. Which side is Rwanda on? How about Darfur? The Balkans? US inner cities? The pre-civil war US South? > You should travel to other countries. Do you really want to compare passports? I spend a lot of time outside the US. (I've got three more weeks planned this year alone.) > The U.S. is perceived as the biggest thug in the world, right now. That's because the rest of the world feels safe.

by TriinT 17y ago

gojomo 17y ago

It was a different era. Smart, diligent, well-meaning people, chosen through the best mechanisms of election and promotion available, did things we now understand were awful. It's easy to judge from here and now, but in a similar position of responsibility, are you sure you would not make equivalent mistakes either way -- too much aggression, or too much passivity? WW2, Hitler, Stalin were still the kinds of threats on people's minds -- where less than 20 years earlier failure to engage and deter early had resulted in the death of tens of millions. Communism loudly claimed it was the irresistible wave of the future and was showing the military power to make the claim credible. Soviet H-Bombs. A brutal and bloody stalemate in Korea. Tanks rolling into eastern Europe; Soviet satellites crashing into Wisconsin; nuclear missiles in Cuba! And if it hadn't been Kennedy at the helm -- it would have been Nixon! And if not LBJ -- it would have been Barry "lob a [nuke] into the bathroom of the Kremlin" Goldwater! We can chuckle at the "sorry" "mistakes" of the "domino-theorists" with as many "scare-quotes" as we like from our "comfortable" "decades-later" "safe" perspective, but the fact that there was a large consensus of smart, non-evil, "right-thinking" people behind most U.S. cold-war military actions should prompt a little humility in passing judgment. Finally, peace requires some measure of forgiveness. To imply there's still some score to settle 40 years later -- some punishment McNamara (if he were alive) and peers still deserve -- is the attitude behind never-ending war and strife.

anamax 17y ago
> We can chuckle at the "sorry" "mistakes" of the "domino-theorists" Umm, what "mistakes"? There was a domino plan. Yes, the "not-communists" were brutal thugs. However, the communists were, in fact, worse. (That's not to say that we opposed them in the best way, but it's also not obvious how we could have actually done significantly better.) Perfection is rarely an option, either in choosing what to do or how to do it. One can argue that this was not of our biz, but it's unclear why the same standard shouldn't apply to WWII, South Africa, the Balkans, Rwanda, Darfur, or even inner cities. There is no bright line here.
- TriinT 17y ago
  Please. Even McNamara himself admitted that the "domino theory" was retarded. The U.S. should stop intervening in other people's business, period. Yes, the communists were brutal thugs, but it was their country and they should deal with it. They should have the freedom to make their own mistakes and pay for it with their own lives. I don't see why American boys have to pay the ultimate price to solve a crisis which does not concern them. Oh, and if the communists were brutal thugs, so were the Americans. For example, CIA's Operation Phoenix (which killed over 60,000 Vietnamese) was the bloodiest operation against political targets ever, second only to the Nazis' terror campaigns in occupied Europe. You should travel to other countries. The U.S. is perceived as the biggest thug in the world, right now. There's no moral high ground after Uncle Sam's thugs butchered so many innocent people overseas.
  - anamax 17y ago
    > I don't see why American boys have to pay the ultimate price to solve a crisis which does not concern them. Fair enough, but where is this line? I asked about WWII, but there are plenty of other instances where US got involved or folks argued that we should have. Which side is Rwanda on? How about Darfur? The Balkans? US inner cities? The pre-civil war US South? > You should travel to other countries. Do you really want to compare passports? I spend a lot of time outside the US. (I've got three more weeks planned this year alone.) > The U.S. is perceived as the biggest thug in the world, right now. That's because the rest of the world feels safe.