5 ms·

Thank you so much, kind American intelligence guy, for having the grace to not look at USA citizens emails, all the while not even mentioning foreigners, who sh

Thank you so much, kind American intelligence guy, for having the grace to not look at USA citizens emails, all the while not even mentioning foreigners, who should apparently just lie down and take it.

Zigurd 13y ago
Not to mention other members of the Five Eyes who are not restrained from reading US intercepts.
- rdtsc 13y ago
  You are missing the important aspect of it, and that is, just like their citizens are fair game for us, we are also fair game for them. I would be highly surprised if those agencies are _not_ allowed to "look" at our data, since they won't be breaking any "laws". Fuck everything about finding loopholes and skating on the edge of what is legal. NSA has repeatedly lied so far, never apologied for it. A lie would come out and bam! exposed by Snowden's docs. It was spectacular to watch. The bottom line is, I am more scared and afraid of our NSA than of the Chinese bogey men or "cyber warriors" out there. I have not seen anything but lies, trickery and dishonesty come out of their mouth. I think they are traitors and unpatriotic. They are betraying fundamental principles this country is founded on. I can see how slimey mafia lawyers would want the laws re-interpreted to fit their clients' purposes ("well, it depends what 'is' is, your honor"), I don't want out government doing the same. It technically might be legal it doesn't mean it isn't shitty.
jonknee 13y ago
Not just lie down and take it, the foreigners should be re-assured that their communications are also shared to the USA's best friends: > If you are a citizen of the UK, Canada, New Zealand, or Australia, you may also be glad, because everything the NSA collects is by default shared with your government (the default classification is TS//SI//REL TO FVEY, or "release to five eyes", which are the aforementioned countries and the US).
timdiggerm 13y ago
Do you think the US (& friends) is the only one doing (or at least trying) to do this?
- typon 13y ago
  "Other people are committing unethical acts, therefore it is ok for me to do the same"
  - timdiggerm 13y ago
    People seem to take the view that if the US stops surveillance, then they'll be truly free.
javert 13y ago
As a US citizen, I assume foreign countries (esp. China) spy on me. But I don't go around bitching about that. Why? Because the US will protect me. China cannot hurt me. On the other hand, when the US spies on me, I am much more threatened, because nobody can protect me from the US. If the US turns against me (for instance, for supporting the Tea Party), declaring me part of a "violent organization", I'm in real trouble. tl;dr compain about your own country spying on you, not other countries spying on you
- jkrems 13y ago
  I think you are missing a point: US (cloud) companies do business with for example European companies/customers. The leaks suggest that all data a non-US customer stores with them is fair game for being snooped by NSA etc. without any judge or due process. This turns "complain about your own country spying on you!" into "Don't do business with an American company if you care for legal protection/are not stupid". But please continue to pretend that economy is confined by national borders.
  - javert 13y ago
    > The leaks suggest that all data a non-US customer stores with them is fair game for being snooped by NSA etc. without any judge or due process. I agree. > turns "complain about your own country spying on you!" into "Don't do business with an American company if you care for legal protection/are not stupid". I agree. As a US citizen, I was quite upset when my employer started mandating Gmail use, and this was before the Snowden leaks. Foreign companies are obliged not to use US cloud services, just as US companies are obliged not to use Chinese ones. That is all water under the bridge now. There is no going back. So you are not actually rebutting anything I said.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    U.S. law has never been compatible with E.U. data protection law as I understand it though, even before Snowden. The Europeans can't seriously have thought the U.S. wasn't engaging in surveillance (and indeed, they did know otherwise, with ECHELON), so what can be said for that other than "caveat emptor"? Until multilateral treaties are passed dictating how one national jurisdiction will handle the data of another then every EU business using a US cloud service has just been using wishful thinking. And again, this was true even before Snowden.
eli 13y ago
This is the point of an intelligence agency, no?
jpkeisala 13y ago
On the Internet we foreigners are colonies and the Americans are our Masters.

Zigurd 13y ago

Not to mention other members of the Five Eyes who are not restrained from reading US intercepts.

rdtsc 13y ago
You are missing the important aspect of it, and that is, just like their citizens are fair game for us, we are also fair game for them. I would be highly surprised if those agencies are _not_ allowed to "look" at our data, since they won't be breaking any "laws". Fuck everything about finding loopholes and skating on the edge of what is legal. NSA has repeatedly lied so far, never apologied for it. A lie would come out and bam! exposed by Snowden's docs. It was spectacular to watch. The bottom line is, I am more scared and afraid of our NSA than of the Chinese bogey men or "cyber warriors" out there. I have not seen anything but lies, trickery and dishonesty come out of their mouth. I think they are traitors and unpatriotic. They are betraying fundamental principles this country is founded on. I can see how slimey mafia lawyers would want the laws re-interpreted to fit their clients' purposes ("well, it depends what 'is' is, your honor"), I don't want out government doing the same. It technically might be legal it doesn't mean it isn't shitty.

jonknee 13y ago

Not just lie down and take it, the foreigners should be re-assured that their communications are also shared to the USA's best friends: > If you are a citizen of the UK, Canada, New Zealand, or Australia, you may also be glad, because everything the NSA collects is by default shared with your government (the default classification is TS//SI//REL TO FVEY, or "release to five eyes", which are the aforementioned countries and the US).

timdiggerm 13y ago

Do you think the US (& friends) is the only one doing (or at least trying) to do this?

typon 13y ago
"Other people are committing unethical acts, therefore it is ok for me to do the same"
- timdiggerm 13y ago
  People seem to take the view that if the US stops surveillance, then they'll be truly free.

javert 13y ago

As a US citizen, I assume foreign countries (esp. China) spy on me. But I don't go around bitching about that. Why? Because the US will protect me. China cannot hurt me. On the other hand, when the US spies on me, I am much more threatened, because nobody can protect me from the US. If the US turns against me (for instance, for supporting the Tea Party), declaring me part of a "violent organization", I'm in real trouble. tl;dr compain about your own country spying on you, not other countries spying on you

jkrems 13y ago
I think you are missing a point: US (cloud) companies do business with for example European companies/customers. The leaks suggest that all data a non-US customer stores with them is fair game for being snooped by NSA etc. without any judge or due process. This turns "complain about your own country spying on you!" into "Don't do business with an American company if you care for legal protection/are not stupid". But please continue to pretend that economy is confined by national borders.
- javert 13y ago
  > The leaks suggest that all data a non-US customer stores with them is fair game for being snooped by NSA etc. without any judge or due process. I agree. > turns "complain about your own country spying on you!" into "Don't do business with an American company if you care for legal protection/are not stupid". I agree. As a US citizen, I was quite upset when my employer started mandating Gmail use, and this was before the Snowden leaks. Foreign companies are obliged not to use US cloud services, just as US companies are obliged not to use Chinese ones. That is all water under the bridge now. There is no going back. So you are not actually rebutting anything I said.
- mpyne 13y ago
  U.S. law has never been compatible with E.U. data protection law as I understand it though, even before Snowden. The Europeans can't seriously have thought the U.S. wasn't engaging in surveillance (and indeed, they did know otherwise, with ECHELON), so what can be said for that other than "caveat emptor"? Until multilateral treaties are passed dictating how one national jurisdiction will handle the data of another then every EU business using a US cloud service has just been using wishful thinking. And again, this was true even before Snowden.

eli 13y ago

This is the point of an intelligence agency, no?

jpkeisala 13y ago

On the Internet we foreigners are colonies and the Americans are our Masters.