6 ms·

wow, stereotype much?

by dba7dba 13y ago

PhantomGremlin 13y ago
Why do you glibly dismiss it as a "stereotype"? Did you read the post that prompted him to write that? It was preserved on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6025525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6025525 That post discusses in detail exactly what is wrong with the training culture in Korea. Do you have any knowledge or experience to dispute the post? Can you come up with something more enlightening than the 3 word reply "wow, stereotype much?"? BTW this criticism of flying culture in many foreign airlines isn't just found in this one post. Read pprune.org and you will find many many similar stories. Are all those people posting simply making things up? I don't think so.
- jpatokal 13y ago
  And this post demolishes Gladwell's theory rather thoroughly. http://askakorean.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/culturalism-gladwell-and-airplane.html http://askakorean.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/culturalism-gladwe...
  - lisper 13y ago
    So what? Just because some author advanced a flawed argument does not change the fact that Koreans account for a greater share of aircraft accidents caused by pilot error than could be reasonably accounted for by random chance. Just because an argument is flawed doesn't mean the conclusion is false.
    - jpatokal 13y ago
      The link I posted notes that 3 of the 7 crashes where Gladwell blames "pilot error" were actually caused by being shot down by the Soviets (x2) and being bombed by the North Koreans (x1). Which pretty much removes the statistical anomaly of Korean airlines having more accidents.
      - lisper 13y ago
        Look, we all agree that Malcolm Gladwell is an idiot, so the fact that he cites bogus data contributes nothing to the discussion. Happily, we don't need to rely on Gladwell's data. Korean air lines have had so many incidents and accidents that there's a whole wikipedia page about them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_incidents_and_accidents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_incidents_and_accide... "Korean Air had many fatal accidents between 1970 and 1999, during which time it wrote off 16 aircraft in serious incidents and accidents with the loss of 700 lives. The last fatal accident, Korean Air Cargo Flight 8509 in December 1999 led to a review of how Korean cultural attitudes had contributed to its poor crash history." So for 30 years, KAL was crashing planes at the rate of about one every other year. The situation did improve after the review, but there was still an unintended off-runway landing in 2007, and of course the SFO crash (which is not mentioned in the article at all -- someone needs to go update it).
  - notastartup 13y ago
    That blog writer is a Korean American lawyer and easily hated for his inaccurate and biased reporting of Korean topic. He arrogantly claims to represent his erroneous views as what majority of Koreans think. Who do I trust more, some biased Korean American lawyer who hates his job and rants online, or an officer who trained Korean pilots, witnessed that the Korean culture produces incompetent pilots?
- notastartup 13y ago
  I grew up in Korea and know very well of the culture in Korean society. It's basically a military hierarchy with people older than you, automatically being at a higher position in society. You do not question, it's considered "rude". Having lived outside of Korea, I can completely understand the possibility that Korean culture plays a role in job areas where teamwork and hierarchial culture clash with common sense and the ability to express it freely without social barriers or repercussions. I see a lot of fellow Koreans defending that culture is not responsible for producing incompetent pilots but based on what I've read, from that officer who have trained Korean pilots and have witnessed a near 90% failure rate on the flight simulation involving manual airplane control, I'd have to say I'm pretty fucking worried. It's totally unfair to cry "STEREOTYPING!" or "THATS RACIST". I really don't give a flying shit, you are not changing the culture (or more like can't change it because it's considered an essential core identity of Korean culture) that produces shitty pilots, you are not flying my plane. It would be fine if Asiana just accept it and try to change the root problem which is the hierarchial social barrier present in Korean culture clearly incompatible in this particular industry of flying airplanes where teamwork and ability to express one's opinion and observations without fear of repercussion or coming across as rude and losing face. For now, if it's Asiana or KAL, I am not fucking getting on that plane. It's one thing to be proud of our culture but it takes a bigger courage to accept that not all of it is compatible with new technological jobs, and finally fix it.

wow, stereotype much?

by dba7dba 13y ago

wow, stereotype much?

Why do you glibly dismiss it as a "stereotype"? Did you read the post that prompted him to write that? It was preserved on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6025525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6025525 That post discusses in detail exactly what is wrong with the training culture in Korea. Do you have any knowledge or experience to dispute the post? Can you come up with something more enlightening than the 3 word reply "wow, stereotype much?"? BTW this criticism of flying culture in many foreign airlines isn't just found in this one post. Read pprune.org and you will find many many similar stories. Are all those people posting simply making things up? I don't think so.

jpatokal 13y ago
And this post demolishes Gladwell's theory rather thoroughly. http://askakorean.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/culturalism-gladwell-and-airplane.html http://askakorean.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/culturalism-gladwe...
- lisper 13y ago
  So what? Just because some author advanced a flawed argument does not change the fact that Koreans account for a greater share of aircraft accidents caused by pilot error than could be reasonably accounted for by random chance. Just because an argument is flawed doesn't mean the conclusion is false.
  - jpatokal 13y ago
    The link I posted notes that 3 of the 7 crashes where Gladwell blames "pilot error" were actually caused by being shot down by the Soviets (x2) and being bombed by the North Koreans (x1). Which pretty much removes the statistical anomaly of Korean airlines having more accidents.
    - lisper 13y ago
      Look, we all agree that Malcolm Gladwell is an idiot, so the fact that he cites bogus data contributes nothing to the discussion. Happily, we don't need to rely on Gladwell's data. Korean air lines have had so many incidents and accidents that there's a whole wikipedia page about them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_incidents_and_accidents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_incidents_and_accide... "Korean Air had many fatal accidents between 1970 and 1999, during which time it wrote off 16 aircraft in serious incidents and accidents with the loss of 700 lives. The last fatal accident, Korean Air Cargo Flight 8509 in December 1999 led to a review of how Korean cultural attitudes had contributed to its poor crash history." So for 30 years, KAL was crashing planes at the rate of about one every other year. The situation did improve after the review, but there was still an unintended off-runway landing in 2007, and of course the SFO crash (which is not mentioned in the article at all -- someone needs to go update it).
- notastartup 13y ago
  That blog writer is a Korean American lawyer and easily hated for his inaccurate and biased reporting of Korean topic. He arrogantly claims to represent his erroneous views as what majority of Koreans think. Who do I trust more, some biased Korean American lawyer who hates his job and rants online, or an officer who trained Korean pilots, witnessed that the Korean culture produces incompetent pilots?
notastartup 13y ago
I grew up in Korea and know very well of the culture in Korean society. It's basically a military hierarchy with people older than you, automatically being at a higher position in society. You do not question, it's considered "rude". Having lived outside of Korea, I can completely understand the possibility that Korean culture plays a role in job areas where teamwork and hierarchial culture clash with common sense and the ability to express it freely without social barriers or repercussions. I see a lot of fellow Koreans defending that culture is not responsible for producing incompetent pilots but based on what I've read, from that officer who have trained Korean pilots and have witnessed a near 90% failure rate on the flight simulation involving manual airplane control, I'd have to say I'm pretty fucking worried. It's totally unfair to cry "STEREOTYPING!" or "THATS RACIST". I really don't give a flying shit, you are not changing the culture (or more like can't change it because it's considered an essential core identity of Korean culture) that produces shitty pilots, you are not flying my plane. It would be fine if Asiana just accept it and try to change the root problem which is the hierarchial social barrier present in Korean culture clearly incompatible in this particular industry of flying airplanes where teamwork and ability to express one's opinion and observations without fear of repercussion or coming across as rude and losing face. For now, if it's Asiana or KAL, I am not fucking getting on that plane. It's one thing to be proud of our culture but it takes a bigger courage to accept that not all of it is compatible with new technological jobs, and finally fix it.