6 ms·

Qian was a co-founder and very first Director of the JPL, recognised by his peers as being a genius. He didn't need to be a spy, he had everything in his head.

by yapcguy 13y ago

Qian was a co-founder and very first Director of the JPL, recognised by his peers as being a genius. He didn't need to be a spy, he had everything in his head. His wife even says that he wanted to become a naturalized US citizen. "Sent to Germany to interrogate Nazi scientists, Qian interviewed rocket scientist Wernher von Braun. As the trade magazine Aviation Week put it in 2007, upon naming Qian its person of the year, "No one then knew that the father of the future U.S. space program was being quizzed by the father of the future Chinese space program." No evidence was presented, he was never tried or convicted of being a spy. Imagine being at the height of your powers and than being wrongly accused of a crime, and for five years not being able to work with your peers. Science was the loser here. Today's media reports on the moon landing refer to China's "military backed" space program. Duh. Instead of celebrating science, it's sad to see people rolling out little slurs and digs which are intended to discredit China and its achievements. I won't say it's racist but it sure looks like it.

ryanhuff 13y ago
I won't say it's racist but it sure looks like it. But you did say it, and its ridiculous. How exactly is this supposed to be "racist"? You don't think if Qian was Russian, and this was the 1950's that the government wouldn't have done something similar? The government can (and does) make decisions out of fear, and that's probably what was going on in this case.
- beachstartup 13y ago
  > You don't think if Qian was Russian, and this was the 1950's that the government wouldn't have done something similar? yeah, more or less. Wernher von Braun (1912-1977), technical director of Nazi Germany's missile program, became the United States' lead rocket engineer during the 1950s and 1960s this guy was a former nazi, AND his home country of germany was a soviet satellite state, he seemed to escape suspicion. so this guy was a nazi and a communist, but he was all good. no problems here! gee. i wonder why. there were also many soviet defectors that were never chased out of the country. this is because he was chinese, plain and simple. doesn't look like us = not one of us. that was the thinking back in the day. i wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that his accusors simply didn't think a chinese person could be smart enough to be a rocket scientist, either. people actually thought this way back in the 50s.
  - yapcguy 13y ago
    It still seems to be the thinking today. Success by Asians is smeared as being the result of industrial espionage, cheating or pure luck. This drip feed of soft propaganda and sterotyping can't be good for society, when clearly many challenges remain: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-lorde-asian-boyfriend-racist-comments-20131211,0,5546151.story http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-lorde-asian-...
    - pekk 13y ago
      You seem to be denying that Chinese industrial espionage occurs...
      - yapcguy 13y ago
        Do newspapers make similar accusations of 'friendly' countries proven to conduct espionage?
        gwern 13y ago
        You can find plenty of coverage of Israelis spying on the US for Israel. A 'friendly' country long since proven to conduct espionage.
  - zhemao 13y ago
    A few of Qian's colleagues at JPL were also from countries under Communist control and they were never under suspicion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_von_K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_von_K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n So yeah, pretty much. From commie country + not white = commie.
    - ryanhuff 13y ago
      That doesn't explain all of the "white" people that were investigated (and black listed) during the "Second Red Scare" of the 1950's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
gwern 13y ago
> No evidence was presented, he was never tried or convicted of being a spy. Imagine being at the height of your powers and than being wrongly accused of a crime, and for five years not being able to work with your peers. Science was the loser here. Security is not a judicial procedure. Did we need to have a formal court trial with a smoking gun before we decided Dual_EC_DRBG was untrustworthy? Did we say 'yes, it's the NSA which is associated with treachery against cryptography and no, we can't prove it was backdoored, but let's assume good faith and keep using it'? No, of course not, because in security, that is an insane mindset.
- austinz 13y ago
  Security is a judicial procedure, which is why we try and convict spies of espionage using evidence gathered by investigations rather than disappearing and executing people suspected of being traitors. > Did we need to have a formal court trial with a smoking gun before we decided Dual_EC_DRBG was untrustworthy? No, because you can't try algorithms in a court of law. Algorithms don't have moral agency and can't act of their own accord. This analogy is unhelpful. > Did we say 'yes, it's the NSA'... The implication being that the NSA, an untrustworthy actor, created the PRNG and hence the PRNG is suspicious. That's reasonable. What's the analogy in the case of Qian? That he had been strongly linked or associated with activity or actors that were engaged in espionage? Fair enough. If you are claiming that his ancestry alone justifies as much suspicion in him as the provenance of Dual_EC_DRBG justifies suspicion in that PRNG...then we may have to agree to disagree.
  - gwern 13y ago
    > Security is a judicial procedure, which is why we try and convict spies of espionage using evidence gathered by investigations rather than disappearing and executing people suspected of being traitors. No, it can escalate into judicial procedures if security agencies decide to make an example of someone, but it is not inherently judicial. When someone is denied clearance, it is not because they were put on trial by a jury of their peers and found guilty by majority vote after an extended trial with all the safeguards afforded citizens by the constitution. > Algorithms don't have moral agency and can't act of their own accord. This analogy is unhelpful. The analogy is apt. Both people and software are part of systems (have we learned nothing from social engineering?) and are attack surfaces. > That he had been strongly linked or associated with activity or actors that were engaged in espionage? Fair enough. If you are claiming that his ancestry alone Yes, that his loyalties may be divided because he came from China and not some obscure country like New Zealand. And let's not forget, it's not just his 'ancestry' - he wasn't born in Peoria Iowa. He was born and raised in China and came to the USA for higher education. That's much closer ties to China than 'ancestry'.

by yapcguy 13y ago

ryanhuff 13y ago

I won't say it's racist but it sure looks like it. But you did say it, and its ridiculous. How exactly is this supposed to be "racist"? You don't think if Qian was Russian, and this was the 1950's that the government wouldn't have done something similar? The government can (and does) make decisions out of fear, and that's probably what was going on in this case.

beachstartup 13y ago
> You don't think if Qian was Russian, and this was the 1950's that the government wouldn't have done something similar? yeah, more or less. Wernher von Braun (1912-1977), technical director of Nazi Germany's missile program, became the United States' lead rocket engineer during the 1950s and 1960s this guy was a former nazi, AND his home country of germany was a soviet satellite state, he seemed to escape suspicion. so this guy was a nazi and a communist, but he was all good. no problems here! gee. i wonder why. there were also many soviet defectors that were never chased out of the country. this is because he was chinese, plain and simple. doesn't look like us = not one of us. that was the thinking back in the day. i wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that his accusors simply didn't think a chinese person could be smart enough to be a rocket scientist, either. people actually thought this way back in the 50s.
- yapcguy 13y ago
  It still seems to be the thinking today. Success by Asians is smeared as being the result of industrial espionage, cheating or pure luck. This drip feed of soft propaganda and sterotyping can't be good for society, when clearly many challenges remain: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-lorde-asian-boyfriend-racist-comments-20131211,0,5546151.story http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-lorde-asian-...
  - pekk 13y ago
    You seem to be denying that Chinese industrial espionage occurs...
    - yapcguy 13y ago
      Do newspapers make similar accusations of 'friendly' countries proven to conduct espionage?
      - gwern 13y ago
        You can find plenty of coverage of Israelis spying on the US for Israel. A 'friendly' country long since proven to conduct espionage.
- zhemao 13y ago
  A few of Qian's colleagues at JPL were also from countries under Communist control and they were never under suspicion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_von_K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_von_K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n So yeah, pretty much. From commie country + not white = commie.
  - ryanhuff 13y ago
    That doesn't explain all of the "white" people that were investigated (and black listed) during the "Second Red Scare" of the 1950's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

gwern 13y ago

> No evidence was presented, he was never tried or convicted of being a spy. Imagine being at the height of your powers and than being wrongly accused of a crime, and for five years not being able to work with your peers. Science was the loser here. Security is not a judicial procedure. Did we need to have a formal court trial with a smoking gun before we decided Dual_EC_DRBG was untrustworthy? Did we say 'yes, it's the NSA which is associated with treachery against cryptography and no, we can't prove it was backdoored, but let's assume good faith and keep using it'? No, of course not, because in security, that is an insane mindset.

austinz 13y ago
Security is a judicial procedure, which is why we try and convict spies of espionage using evidence gathered by investigations rather than disappearing and executing people suspected of being traitors. > Did we need to have a formal court trial with a smoking gun before we decided Dual_EC_DRBG was untrustworthy? No, because you can't try algorithms in a court of law. Algorithms don't have moral agency and can't act of their own accord. This analogy is unhelpful. > Did we say 'yes, it's the NSA'... The implication being that the NSA, an untrustworthy actor, created the PRNG and hence the PRNG is suspicious. That's reasonable. What's the analogy in the case of Qian? That he had been strongly linked or associated with activity or actors that were engaged in espionage? Fair enough. If you are claiming that his ancestry alone justifies as much suspicion in him as the provenance of Dual_EC_DRBG justifies suspicion in that PRNG...then we may have to agree to disagree.
- gwern 13y ago
  > Security is a judicial procedure, which is why we try and convict spies of espionage using evidence gathered by investigations rather than disappearing and executing people suspected of being traitors. No, it can escalate into judicial procedures if security agencies decide to make an example of someone, but it is not inherently judicial. When someone is denied clearance, it is not because they were put on trial by a jury of their peers and found guilty by majority vote after an extended trial with all the safeguards afforded citizens by the constitution. > Algorithms don't have moral agency and can't act of their own accord. This analogy is unhelpful. The analogy is apt. Both people and software are part of systems (have we learned nothing from social engineering?) and are attack surfaces. > That he had been strongly linked or associated with activity or actors that were engaged in espionage? Fair enough. If you are claiming that his ancestry alone Yes, that his loyalties may be divided because he came from China and not some obscure country like New Zealand. And let's not forget, it's not just his 'ancestry' - he wasn't born in Peoria Iowa. He was born and raised in China and came to the USA for higher education. That's much closer ties to China than 'ancestry'.