6 ms·

Linux laptops: should you avoid buying Windows?

37 points by hepha1979 13y ago

aurora72 13y ago
The author exaggerates the compatibility of Linux drivers on a given Laptop.
fzltrp 13y ago
Manufacturers used to offer the possibility of requesting to get a refund for the unused MS Windows license. Did that possibility go away?
- schoen 13y ago
  I was involved in some Windows Refund stuff in California. Many manufacturers later added language to their marketing and packaging claiming that bundled software was an integral part of their product and could not be returned separately, nor resold separately. If you tried to return it separately for a refund (as the Windows EULA text seemed to suggest), they would say that that was only an option if you returned the entire product. So, my impression is that it's actually become dramatically more difficult for most manufacturers because they're specifically trying to prevent customers from getting a refund just for bundled copies of Windows. I've imagined that some of these policies might violate (or be unenforceable because of) antitrust, consumer protection, or copyright laws in some jurisdictions, but I don't know of specific cases where they've been challenged on these bases or what the results were. I still look forward to a future in which the price of proprietary operating systems is actually able to operate as a disincentive for people to buy them.
Zigurd 13y ago
With good support for Intel graphics, and more laptops leaving out 3rd party GPUs even on Core i7 models, it's easy to buy a laptop with high confidence that Linux will work on it. But the article glosses over the trickiness of keeping a Windows partition on UEFI machines. Not an issue for me, but it does make me want a Windows license refund more than before.
- csmuk 13y ago
  Well it is until you want reliable WiFi and hibernate/suspend that actually works...
  - iends 13y ago
    I've not had problems with wireless under Linux since ~2000. Suspend/Resume is also catching up.
    - SkyMarshal 13y ago
      Suspend works fine now in my experience, it's mainly hibernate where the remaining issues are.
    - CSDude 13y ago
      Interestingly muy suspend/resume worked always for 3 different computers, but failed on one desktop.
    - lukeschlather 13y ago
      I reinstalled Ubuntu on an Asus that shipped with Ubuntu, and wireless randomly doesn't work on boot. Claims that it's disabled by hardware switch (there is no hardware switch.)
      - mixmastamyk 13y ago
        sudo rfkill unblock all Why? I don't know, but I have to run this command a few times a year. It's in my history so it's easy to find.
  - lttlrck 13y ago
    The biggest complaint I have by far is power management. It seems to be better with recent kernels but still almost 50% of what I would get with Windows.
    - csmuk 13y ago
bluedino 13y ago
I thought this article would be about System76. I've had pretty good luck with buying a ThinkPad T/X series and just plopping in the latest Ubuntu LTS release.
- odonnellryan 13y ago
  Works great with many Dell laptops as well.
mrj 13y ago
I wouldn't risk the pain. You'll have to do a fair bit of research to figure out how easily Linux can be setup on a given laptop, and if you'll have to deal with the UEFI secure boot madness or not. I just got a laptop from system76.com instead and I'm very pleased with it. No messing about. I know it works with my OS. If that's not appealing, then Linux works great on Apple laptops.
- maxharris 13y ago
  If that's not appealing, then Linux works great on Apple laptops. Yep. Also, as an aside (relevant because hardware quality is an important factor no matter what OS you have installed): After 15 years of wrestling with non-Apple hardware, I bought a MacBook Pro in 2008, and another one in 2011. I tried using a PC laptop from work a couple of months ago, and I was shocked at how terrible the build quality was. A brand new laptop should not squeak when you use the keyboard or trackpad. Nor should it crash randomly once a day. After six years of pain-free living with the Mac, I have no sympathy for those that complain about PCs but won't switch.
  - jamesbritt 13y ago
    What is a "PC laptop"? There are numerous companies that make laptops; what sense does it make to write them all off because some of them make junk?
  - kunai 13y ago
    I see you haven't used a ThinkPad. This is the same bullshit logical fallacy that keeps me firmly opposed to modern Macs. You think, that somehow, a $300 PC will be WORSE than a $1299 MacBook, and that ALL PCs are somehow terrible in build quality. And then again more bullshit about Windows crashing twice a day. Yeah, maybe, if you have some crappy third-party wireless card with a driver written by some corporate intern in Pascal 18 years ago. People like you are why my Air is sitting in my closet and why I'm still using a PowerBook G4 in 2013.
    - rdtsc 13y ago
jdonaldson 13y ago
I had the dell xps 13 for a while. At the time, I thought the planets had finally aligned wrt driver support, build quality, and base specs. I was already using ubuntu on workstations and vms, and felt pretty happy with it. In the end, it was small things that caused problems. For the dell xps 13, it was wireless performance. Also, I got the HD screen, which makes certain applications nearly unusable at the small screen dimensions. I went back to a macbook air. I know you're not looking for a macbook, but that ended up being my sweet spot.
_Simon 13y ago
Reading the article, it sounds like it should carry an "Advertising Feature" sub heading. I've long thought Scofield is a hack. This piece confirms it.
lettergram 13y ago
I know when I decided to buy a cheapish laptop 4 years ago to run Linux I chose Lenovo, it's still running decently well and I have never had problems. However, after reviewing the specs new laptops (since it's about time to get a new one) I am leaning towards a Macbook air or pro. They seem to give more bang for the buck and the OS has everything I need, along with excellent hardware (and outstanding battery life). I could also ssh into my linux tower when ever I need. That being said, I know I would suggest that the person in this article probably should go with a macbook air. It is better than windows in most respects and also has much of the capabilities of most linus distros.
- nilgradisnik 13y ago
  Before looking into Macbooks you should check out Thinkpad X1 Carbon, works flawlessly on Ubuntu, superb build quality and performance. Speaking from my own experience.
  - w1ntermute 13y ago
    Another vote for the X1 Carbon. Definitely the way to go. It's too bad hardly anyone knows about it though.
  - mixmastamyk 13y ago
    Looks nice, but that resolution isn't good enough anymore.
jedbrown 13y ago
I have run either Linux or FreeBSD (briefly) on every laptop I have owned since my first one in 2002. I have never once booted into Windows since the first thing I do is wipe the disk. However, despite switching vendors several times, every one of those machines has had Windows preinstalled because it ended up being included with the hardware I wanted. Even when I was quite poor, I didn't care so much about getting a refund for the Windows Tax (after all, I was willing to pay the price with Windows included), but I hated the fact that I was subsidizing a company whose product I don't use and who is actively working against my user experience. I'd be happy with paying the same retail price, but with a simple way to donate what would have gone to Microsoft to the Linux Foundation or to pay an employee working on drivers, open standards, or anything else that ultimately improves my experience.
keithpeter 13y ago
Mentions Lenovo, UK based, but does not feature the Linux Emporium, strange. I personally do not need exceptional speed, so using refurbished Thinkpads off ebay. "This would enable you to wipe the hard drive and install Debian while retaining the option to load either Windows 7 Pro (which includes an XP mode) or Windows 8 Pro if you need them." I would always suggest making an image of the hard drive using CloneZilla and using the Windows tool to make a restore DVD before wiping. Should you decide to flog the beast in a year or so, you can restore to factory state.
- yapcguy 13y ago
  Many of the Thinkpads have easily removeable hard drives, so just take the factory one out, and pop in a SSD. Time to sell, put the factory drive back in.
- johnchristopher 13y ago
  Can you recommend any sellers ?
  - keithpeter 13y ago
    At the Core Duo 2 end of the spectrum (e.g. X200s and X61 in my case), there are quite a few UK ebay sellers selling ex-corporate machines and I have had no problems with two of those, look out for a 30 day return period, and they always do a 'buy it now' price. Newer i3/i5 based Thinkpads tend to be sold in smaller quantities by individuals so you just have to decide... There is glugglug if an older X60 will do http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/ http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/ Never bought from them but coreboot and a wifi card with fully free drivers look interesting. If they get newer machines to refurbish, I'll definitely look at one in the future.
    - johnchristopher 13y ago
      Thank you.
rythie 13y ago
I had to check the date of the post to check this wasn't dated 2003 or something - his answer seems very dated. Really it's not as hard as he makes out to make this stuff work, popular distros are being updated every 6-months, Intel, Nvidia & AMD get their stuff supported from day one.
loopasam 13y ago
The article shows that buying Windows with a laptop doesn't cost you much more than no Windows at all. Based on this and my experience, I suggest to get a Windows first and install whatever Linux you like as dual-boot. The reasons are: 1) Having a Windows installed strongly guarantees that you are going to have a functional machine no matter what. Depending on your experience with Linux you might screw things up. If it happens you still have Windows as a back-up. 2) If your aim is to communicate research results, it is very likely that you are going to need to use Office at some point, to interact with your supervisor, colleagues, that don't care about OS and just run Windows (the majority of people). You can use Office within Linux but I find it much easier to use directly from Windows (reduces the pipework and focus on the science). 3) It maybe no longer holds, but a few years ago it was really frustrating to use and connect machines running Linux on a projector. For instance let's say you have to give a talk at a conference, you want to be 100% sure that it will work out of the box and that you don't have to fiddle around to show your slides. Windows does that really well (drivers are primarily developed for it I guess) and allows you to focus on the presentation only (stressful enough). I've witnessed numerous times good science being badly communicated because of this issue, where people try to tune the resolution for 10 minutes before starting and the slides end-up being half-cropped. In summary, dual-boots guarantees compatibility with the outside world (science research perspective), and you can use your Linux the rest of the time :-)
- rythie 13y ago
  > 2) If your aim is to communicate research results, it is very likely that you are going to need to use Office at some point Given that I work in a research department, math/scientific research papers are typically written in Latex - Microsoft's support for formulae is pretty bad from what I hear. Also, it's quite likely that your supervisor will have a Mac, those are extremely popular with academics. > 3) Windows does that really well (drivers are primarily developed for it I guess) PowerPoint can really mess that up, you adjust the the screen so it's just right, then hit full screen and PowerPoint changes it a completely different resolution! Also, I've seen tons of people struggle to connect to projectors, this is far from Linux-only problem, typical problems are not knowing the hot key to switch outputs, using the wrong resolution, extend vs. clone and not having an adaptor (typically mac, but not always).
johnminter 13y ago
I have wondered about Zareason laptops (http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/ http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/). Anybody tried them?
- aurora72 13y ago
  I haven't even known such a brand existed but their products are fine
ggreer 13y ago
I noticed one important omission in this article: SSDs. All of the recommended laptops had 500GB hard drives. Modern SSDs are an order of magnitude faster than laptop hard drives in sequential reads/writes and two orders of magnitude faster in random access. Decent SSDs can easily saturate a 6gbps SATA III bus. They have latencies measured in microseconds. They are silent, shock-tolerant, and more energy efficient than hard drives. Once you've switched to an SSD, any laptop with a hard drive will feel broken. Feel free to skimp on everything else when purchasing a laptop, but make sure you shell out the money for a solid state drive.
- gmac 13y ago
  Feel free to skimp on everything else Not hugely helpful advice? Among the things you shouldn't skimp on I'd also include the screen, keyboard and RAM. I guess you could skimp on the processor and graphics ... assuming you're not a gamer and don't compile large projects. Plus, given the high price of SSDs, skimping on everything else might not even make up the cost.
drill_sarge 13y ago
If you get a laptop with mostly Intel (especially gpu) components it is pretty much guaranteed that any major Linux distribution will work out of the box just fine. The thing with preinstalled GNU/Linux is the same with preinstalled Windows: abysmal configuration. Even Dell fked up with their xps13 linux thing.

37 points by hepha1979 13y ago

The author exaggerates the compatibility of Linux drivers on a given Laptop.

Manufacturers used to offer the possibility of requesting to get a refund for the unused MS Windows license. Did that possibility go away?

schoen 13y ago
I was involved in some Windows Refund stuff in California. Many manufacturers later added language to their marketing and packaging claiming that bundled software was an integral part of their product and could not be returned separately, nor resold separately. If you tried to return it separately for a refund (as the Windows EULA text seemed to suggest), they would say that that was only an option if you returned the entire product. So, my impression is that it's actually become dramatically more difficult for most manufacturers because they're specifically trying to prevent customers from getting a refund just for bundled copies of Windows. I've imagined that some of these policies might violate (or be unenforceable because of) antitrust, consumer protection, or copyright laws in some jurisdictions, but I don't know of specific cases where they've been challenged on these bases or what the results were. I still look forward to a future in which the price of proprietary operating systems is actually able to operate as a disincentive for people to buy them.

Zigurd 13y ago

With good support for Intel graphics, and more laptops leaving out 3rd party GPUs even on Core i7 models, it's easy to buy a laptop with high confidence that Linux will work on it. But the article glosses over the trickiness of keeping a Windows partition on UEFI machines. Not an issue for me, but it does make me want a Windows license refund more than before.

csmuk 13y ago
Well it is until you want reliable WiFi and hibernate/suspend that actually works...
- iends 13y ago
  I've not had problems with wireless under Linux since ~2000. Suspend/Resume is also catching up.
  - SkyMarshal 13y ago
    Suspend works fine now in my experience, it's mainly hibernate where the remaining issues are.
  - CSDude 13y ago
    Interestingly muy suspend/resume worked always for 3 different computers, but failed on one desktop.
  - lukeschlather 13y ago
    I reinstalled Ubuntu on an Asus that shipped with Ubuntu, and wireless randomly doesn't work on boot. Claims that it's disabled by hardware switch (there is no hardware switch.)
    - mixmastamyk 13y ago
      sudo rfkill unblock all Why? I don't know, but I have to run this command a few times a year. It's in my history so it's easy to find.
- lttlrck 13y ago
  The biggest complaint I have by far is power management. It seems to be better with recent kernels but still almost 50% of what I would get with Windows.
  - csmuk 13y ago

bluedino 13y ago

I thought this article would be about System76. I've had pretty good luck with buying a ThinkPad T/X series and just plopping in the latest Ubuntu LTS release.

odonnellryan 13y ago
Works great with many Dell laptops as well.

mrj 13y ago

I wouldn't risk the pain. You'll have to do a fair bit of research to figure out how easily Linux can be setup on a given laptop, and if you'll have to deal with the UEFI secure boot madness or not. I just got a laptop from system76.com instead and I'm very pleased with it. No messing about. I know it works with my OS. If that's not appealing, then Linux works great on Apple laptops.

maxharris 13y ago
If that's not appealing, then Linux works great on Apple laptops. Yep. Also, as an aside (relevant because hardware quality is an important factor no matter what OS you have installed): After 15 years of wrestling with non-Apple hardware, I bought a MacBook Pro in 2008, and another one in 2011. I tried using a PC laptop from work a couple of months ago, and I was shocked at how terrible the build quality was. A brand new laptop should not squeak when you use the keyboard or trackpad. Nor should it crash randomly once a day. After six years of pain-free living with the Mac, I have no sympathy for those that complain about PCs but won't switch.
- jamesbritt 13y ago
  What is a "PC laptop"? There are numerous companies that make laptops; what sense does it make to write them all off because some of them make junk?
- kunai 13y ago
  I see you haven't used a ThinkPad. This is the same bullshit logical fallacy that keeps me firmly opposed to modern Macs. You think, that somehow, a $300 PC will be WORSE than a $1299 MacBook, and that ALL PCs are somehow terrible in build quality. And then again more bullshit about Windows crashing twice a day. Yeah, maybe, if you have some crappy third-party wireless card with a driver written by some corporate intern in Pascal 18 years ago. People like you are why my Air is sitting in my closet and why I'm still using a PowerBook G4 in 2013.
  - rdtsc 13y ago

jdonaldson 13y ago

I had the dell xps 13 for a while. At the time, I thought the planets had finally aligned wrt driver support, build quality, and base specs. I was already using ubuntu on workstations and vms, and felt pretty happy with it. In the end, it was small things that caused problems. For the dell xps 13, it was wireless performance. Also, I got the HD screen, which makes certain applications nearly unusable at the small screen dimensions. I went back to a macbook air. I know you're not looking for a macbook, but that ended up being my sweet spot.

_Simon 13y ago

Reading the article, it sounds like it should carry an "Advertising Feature" sub heading. I've long thought Scofield is a hack. This piece confirms it.

lettergram 13y ago

I know when I decided to buy a cheapish laptop 4 years ago to run Linux I chose Lenovo, it's still running decently well and I have never had problems. However, after reviewing the specs new laptops (since it's about time to get a new one) I am leaning towards a Macbook air or pro. They seem to give more bang for the buck and the OS has everything I need, along with excellent hardware (and outstanding battery life). I could also ssh into my linux tower when ever I need. That being said, I know I would suggest that the person in this article probably should go with a macbook air. It is better than windows in most respects and also has much of the capabilities of most linus distros.

nilgradisnik 13y ago
Before looking into Macbooks you should check out Thinkpad X1 Carbon, works flawlessly on Ubuntu, superb build quality and performance. Speaking from my own experience.
- w1ntermute 13y ago
  Another vote for the X1 Carbon. Definitely the way to go. It's too bad hardly anyone knows about it though.
- mixmastamyk 13y ago
  Looks nice, but that resolution isn't good enough anymore.

jedbrown 13y ago

I have run either Linux or FreeBSD (briefly) on every laptop I have owned since my first one in 2002. I have never once booted into Windows since the first thing I do is wipe the disk. However, despite switching vendors several times, every one of those machines has had Windows preinstalled because it ended up being included with the hardware I wanted. Even when I was quite poor, I didn't care so much about getting a refund for the Windows Tax (after all, I was willing to pay the price with Windows included), but I hated the fact that I was subsidizing a company whose product I don't use and who is actively working against my user experience. I'd be happy with paying the same retail price, but with a simple way to donate what would have gone to Microsoft to the Linux Foundation or to pay an employee working on drivers, open standards, or anything else that ultimately improves my experience.

keithpeter 13y ago

Mentions Lenovo, UK based, but does not feature the Linux Emporium, strange. I personally do not need exceptional speed, so using refurbished Thinkpads off ebay. "This would enable you to wipe the hard drive and install Debian while retaining the option to load either Windows 7 Pro (which includes an XP mode) or Windows 8 Pro if you need them." I would always suggest making an image of the hard drive using CloneZilla and using the Windows tool to make a restore DVD before wiping. Should you decide to flog the beast in a year or so, you can restore to factory state.

yapcguy 13y ago
Many of the Thinkpads have easily removeable hard drives, so just take the factory one out, and pop in a SSD. Time to sell, put the factory drive back in.
johnchristopher 13y ago
Can you recommend any sellers ?
- keithpeter 13y ago
  At the Core Duo 2 end of the spectrum (e.g. X200s and X61 in my case), there are quite a few UK ebay sellers selling ex-corporate machines and I have had no problems with two of those, look out for a 30 day return period, and they always do a 'buy it now' price. Newer i3/i5 based Thinkpads tend to be sold in smaller quantities by individuals so you just have to decide... There is glugglug if an older X60 will do http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/ http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/ Never bought from them but coreboot and a wifi card with fully free drivers look interesting. If they get newer machines to refurbish, I'll definitely look at one in the future.
  - johnchristopher 13y ago
    Thank you.

rythie 13y ago

I had to check the date of the post to check this wasn't dated 2003 or something - his answer seems very dated. Really it's not as hard as he makes out to make this stuff work, popular distros are being updated every 6-months, Intel, Nvidia & AMD get their stuff supported from day one.

loopasam 13y ago

The article shows that buying Windows with a laptop doesn't cost you much more than no Windows at all. Based on this and my experience, I suggest to get a Windows first and install whatever Linux you like as dual-boot. The reasons are: 1) Having a Windows installed strongly guarantees that you are going to have a functional machine no matter what. Depending on your experience with Linux you might screw things up. If it happens you still have Windows as a back-up. 2) If your aim is to communicate research results, it is very likely that you are going to need to use Office at some point, to interact with your supervisor, colleagues, that don't care about OS and just run Windows (the majority of people). You can use Office within Linux but I find it much easier to use directly from Windows (reduces the pipework and focus on the science). 3) It maybe no longer holds, but a few years ago it was really frustrating to use and connect machines running Linux on a projector. For instance let's say you have to give a talk at a conference, you want to be 100% sure that it will work out of the box and that you don't have to fiddle around to show your slides. Windows does that really well (drivers are primarily developed for it I guess) and allows you to focus on the presentation only (stressful enough). I've witnessed numerous times good science being badly communicated because of this issue, where people try to tune the resolution for 10 minutes before starting and the slides end-up being half-cropped. In summary, dual-boots guarantees compatibility with the outside world (science research perspective), and you can use your Linux the rest of the time :-)

rythie 13y ago
> 2) If your aim is to communicate research results, it is very likely that you are going to need to use Office at some point Given that I work in a research department, math/scientific research papers are typically written in Latex - Microsoft's support for formulae is pretty bad from what I hear. Also, it's quite likely that your supervisor will have a Mac, those are extremely popular with academics. > 3) Windows does that really well (drivers are primarily developed for it I guess) PowerPoint can really mess that up, you adjust the the screen so it's just right, then hit full screen and PowerPoint changes it a completely different resolution! Also, I've seen tons of people struggle to connect to projectors, this is far from Linux-only problem, typical problems are not knowing the hot key to switch outputs, using the wrong resolution, extend vs. clone and not having an adaptor (typically mac, but not always).

johnminter 13y ago

I have wondered about Zareason laptops (http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/ http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/). Anybody tried them?

aurora72 13y ago
I haven't even known such a brand existed but their products are fine

ggreer 13y ago

I noticed one important omission in this article: SSDs. All of the recommended laptops had 500GB hard drives. Modern SSDs are an order of magnitude faster than laptop hard drives in sequential reads/writes and two orders of magnitude faster in random access. Decent SSDs can easily saturate a 6gbps SATA III bus. They have latencies measured in microseconds. They are silent, shock-tolerant, and more energy efficient than hard drives. Once you've switched to an SSD, any laptop with a hard drive will feel broken. Feel free to skimp on everything else when purchasing a laptop, but make sure you shell out the money for a solid state drive.

gmac 13y ago
Feel free to skimp on everything else Not hugely helpful advice? Among the things you shouldn't skimp on I'd also include the screen, keyboard and RAM. I guess you could skimp on the processor and graphics ... assuming you're not a gamer and don't compile large projects. Plus, given the high price of SSDs, skimping on everything else might not even make up the cost.

drill_sarge 13y ago

If you get a laptop with mostly Intel (especially gpu) components it is pretty much guaranteed that any major Linux distribution will work out of the box just fine. The thing with preinstalled GNU/Linux is the same with preinstalled Windows: abysmal configuration. Even Dell fked up with their xps13 linux thing.