6 ms·

ok, so it's pretty obvious mainstream robotics' time is finally coming. growing up, I could teach myself many facets of software engineering with nothing more t

by gfodor 13y ago

ok, so it's pretty obvious mainstream robotics' time is finally coming. growing up, I could teach myself many facets of software engineering with nothing more than a few books and a computer, and build all kinds of interesting projects that I could use myself and share with others, like games, utilities, web sites, etc. this analogue doesn't seem to be there for learning robotics. if I hack on a robotics project, it feels like it's going to be more of a toy or a demo, and it is self contained and not something that I can share with others to use. sure, I can spend time getting a robot to solve a simple puzzle, navigate a maze, or whatever, but these types of projects seem so less motivating compared to the types of things that got me into coding in the first place: things I could share with others and that they would enjoy using. Are there projects like this? What are some robotics projects that I can build and learn from while and actually use and enjoy, today, relatively cheaply? I want to learn this stuff but it feels very forced to find that most projects seem very academic in nature and not "shippable" like even the most basic toy projects I did when starting out. I went through Thurn's self-driving car class and started the mobile robot control course on Coursera, but the apex of these is at best a simple little robot platform moving around my house sensing tape on the floor. Even that will cost me $1000, in practice I will probably end up with just a simulation on my PC. Mindstorms looks cool but almost by definition it is just a toy. When can I build a robot that will perform real, useful automation that will improve my life, even in some marginal way, not just seem like a cool toy? How can I build a robot that will fetch me a beer or let the dog out or get the mail or something even minor that will make me feel like I am doing something with purpose and a real goal and not a homework assignment to get a robot to perform some meaningless task.

malandrew 13y ago
I too would absolutely love to know how you can get involved with robotics as a hobby without spending and arm and a leg (assuming I have access to a workshop equipment like at TechShop or NoiseBridge).
- m_ke 13y ago
  Get a kinetic, put some wheels on it and then get ROS/PCL running on it.
- moocowduckquack 13y ago
  Go skip diving for old printers and floppy disc drives and such like. You can get all sorts of useful steppers that way and the floppy drives in particular, if you leave the electronics attached, you can control the stepper directly with a couple of wires from a parallel port which you can trigger using something like parashell http://parashell.sourceforge.net/ http://parashell.sourceforge.net/
  - malandrew 13y ago
    Any links to tutorials where people show how to repurpose these old steppers?
    - moocowduckquack 13y ago
      Here's a good start - http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/16715/Controlling-Floppy-Drive-Stepper-Motor-via-Paralle http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/16715/Controlling-Floppy...
      - malandrew 13y ago
        Merci buckets.
        moocowduckquack 13y ago
        The arduino stepper stuff is pretty useful as well - http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/Stepper?from=Tutorial.Stepper http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/Stepper?from=Tutorial.Stepper http://arduino.cc/en/reference/stepper http://arduino.cc/en/reference/stepper http://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-arduino-lesson-16-stepper-motors/ http://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-arduino-lesson-16-stepper...
MarcScott 13y ago
In my school we make line following robots with 14 year olds that are programmed using a couple of cheap micro controllers and cost about £4 in total. $1000 seems a little excessive.
- gfodor 13y ago
  i am referring to a 'legit' robot platform that has sufficient sensors, wheel tick counting, etc, to implement full-on SLAM to get around an area of your house or something (built up from raw sensor and control I/O), which I'm assuming is kind of the "write a decent ray tracer" or "write a lisp" of the robotics world. turtlebot is like $2k, for example: http://store.clearpathrobotics.com/ http://store.clearpathrobotics.com/
  - AnIrishDuck 13y ago
    The time is coming. Remember when computers were very expensive and out of reach for the average joe? It seems likely robotics will follow the same trajectory. The next generation will probably be playing around with $50-100 robotic toys analogous to today's Raspberry Pi.
    - jmpe 13y ago
      It's coming but robotics has a major obstacle: transferring power to locomotion. Ideally, we'd have something like a synthetic muscle that converts electricity to work. Instead we have all sorts of servo/hydraulics based actuators. Because of this robotics have a problem with elegant design (anything that doesn't run on wheels) and power/autonomy. There are advances out there, but as long as one can't buy a strand of synthetic muscle for a few dollars it's not going to progress that much.
      - moocowduckquack 13y ago
        Tendons on linear motors seems like a good approach. http://www.roboy.org/ http://www.roboy.org/ Also, there are shape memory alloys and they are essentially a strand of synthetic muscle for a few dollars. You could concievable bundle them together to make a larger muscle, but you will probably have to do some active cooling if you want any sort of decent response curve and even then motors can be a lot faster. What I think we could really do with is a linear actuator with a simple built in clutch that doesn't take power to hold a position.
robotresearcher 13y ago
ROS and Gazebo are Open Source, are used by professional researchers, and are all you need to make a real contribution. You can't afford a robot, but you can simulate a very good one for free. http://www.osrfoundation.org/ http://www.osrfoundation.org/
- gfodor 13y ago
  The point I was trying to make was that this is great, but at the end of the day my final asset is a little simulator running on my computer that is basically only interesting to other robotics geeks and doesn't actually "do" anything. Some my earliest projects as a programmer were things like photo organization tools, online forum software, ANSI art editors, things that solved a tangible problem and that I could share and others could use. This aspect to it was key in keeping me motivated since it wasn't really a "homework assignment" that solved some abstract problem. I feel like there's a gap here.
  - robotresearcher 13y ago
    I assumed the final asset would be your education. But there is a real gap here: You probably don't have any problems that a simple robot would fix. You can buy a Roomba if you want. The killer app for robots is the autonomous car, and that is coming. No one has figured out what you want a robot for in that huge gap. Heartland has a nifty $20K robot that will do light handling tasks. You still don't want one. If you can think of a robot version of the little software projects, good on you.
    - lifeisstillgood 13y ago
      it is however a really good question - not just good on him, but inspiring to us all.
    - jfoster 13y ago
      Is the autonomous car really the robotics killer app? I don't doubt that the autonomous car will reshape more than one industry (real estate, insurance, and transportation spring to mind), but I think proper robots might allow us to shed so many assumptions about what is possible that it's actually currently difficult to imagine all the things they will end up being used for.
mdda 13y ago
Isn't this a role that 3d printing and Quadcopters are filling for like-minded tinkerers? Extension projects : for instance, if one has a quadcopter and a go-pro, then the next problem is figuring out a cheaper gimbal mount (using BLDCs and a micro-controller/gyroscope).
drone 13y ago
I've found the real cost factor is not so much the robotics platforms when you want to make big+specialized things like this (because the robotics platforms specifically designed for one's particular problem space are often few or non-existent) but the hurdle of tool acquisition. That is to say, most people I know working on these sorts of things as hobbies build as much as they buy. A decent small metal lathe runs about $600-1000, a mill drill can be put together for around $1k, CNC router capable of cutting decent size panels of aluminum for around $2k+. You can buy inexpensive robot platforms, but they're small - there's a reason for this. Heavy, powerful components cost real money and someone has to make margin selling them to you, given they paid margin to buy them. High power and high current control systems (motor drivers, motors, etc.) are more difficult and expensive to design than small, low-power units. But, there's nothing stopping you from seeing a design you like, and making it from the raw parts, except a lack of tools (in most cases). > a simple little robot platform moving around my house sensing tape on the floor. Even that will cost me $1000 Huh? You can buy line-following robot kits on Amazon for $30, and there are even cheaper ones out there. > When can I build a robot that will perform real, useful automation that will improve my life, even in some marginal way, not just seem like a cool toy? How can I build a robot that will fetch me a beer or let the dog out or get the mail or something even minor that will make me feel like I am doing something with purpose and a real goal and not a homework assignment to get a robot to perform some meaningless task. Right now, buy some motors, buy some metal stock, bearings, shaft, pulleys, etc. and start designing a machine around them. Long before you get to the algorithms of running a robot, there are the physics of it, the basic electronics knowledge, and the design and machining. > What are some robotics projects that I can build and learn from while and actually use and enjoy, today, relatively cheaply? Small robotic arms are cheap these days - OWI and Lynxmotion make fairly inexpensive arms for learning, small wheeled bases like the Dagu Wild Thumper can carry a small arm for around $250, and are well regarded. You can throw an Arduino or Raspberry Pi in for control put together a Lynxmotion arm and a Dagu base, and for less than $600, you have a platform that can lift small objects and move them around. When you want bigger, make it yourself from what you've learned.
- liotier 13y ago
  > I've found the real cost factor is not so much the robotics platforms [..] but the hurdle of tool acquisition That's what membership in your local fablab is for.
mmcdan 13y ago
I think that there are a lot of professional-quality robotics projects that one can do, if you look at specialties that use robots. "Robot" is a loaded term that conjures up generalized images of the stuff you read and see in movies. Look into keywords like "automation", "mechatronics", etc... Examples: Silicon wafer handlers, pick-and-place machines, vacuum cleaners, beer pourers, recycling sorters, package handlers, CNC machines, etc... An especially interesting field is open-source prosthetics. There are prosumers making these types of robotics projects in their garages/local hackerspaces. There are many online forums where people sharing their builds as well, and many times these builds are actually used in production situations. Also a high-quality robotics platform in no way needs to cost $1000. If you're on a budget just go to a local hobby shop, spend $100 on a chassis + wheels + motors and order some $0.10 sensors online.
protomyth 13y ago
I've been wondering about this for a while given I currently work for a community college. Skipping the "robot engineer" degree I would expect to show up, what the heck kind of training would be needed for a "robot technician and repair" vocational program?
noonespecial 13y ago
All of your points are good but, keep in mind, a robot that is capable of changing your physical world for the better is capable of doing the opposite. A robot that can get you a beer can also drop one on your toe. For this reason, I expect the "personal robot revolution" to occur at the nexus of wealthy/non-litigious. I'm not quite sure where that is maximized on earth at the moment, but I'm quite certain its not the USA. (My current bet is Chinese cities)

by gfodor 13y ago

malandrew 13y ago

I too would absolutely love to know how you can get involved with robotics as a hobby without spending and arm and a leg (assuming I have access to a workshop equipment like at TechShop or NoiseBridge).

m_ke 13y ago
Get a kinetic, put some wheels on it and then get ROS/PCL running on it.
moocowduckquack 13y ago
Go skip diving for old printers and floppy disc drives and such like. You can get all sorts of useful steppers that way and the floppy drives in particular, if you leave the electronics attached, you can control the stepper directly with a couple of wires from a parallel port which you can trigger using something like parashell http://parashell.sourceforge.net/ http://parashell.sourceforge.net/
- malandrew 13y ago
  Any links to tutorials where people show how to repurpose these old steppers?
  - moocowduckquack 13y ago
    Here's a good start - http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/16715/Controlling-Floppy-Drive-Stepper-Motor-via-Paralle http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/16715/Controlling-Floppy...
    - malandrew 13y ago
      Merci buckets.
      - moocowduckquack 13y ago
        The arduino stepper stuff is pretty useful as well - http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/Stepper?from=Tutorial.Stepper http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/Stepper?from=Tutorial.Stepper http://arduino.cc/en/reference/stepper http://arduino.cc/en/reference/stepper http://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-arduino-lesson-16-stepper-motors/ http://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-arduino-lesson-16-stepper...

MarcScott 13y ago

In my school we make line following robots with 14 year olds that are programmed using a couple of cheap micro controllers and cost about £4 in total. $1000 seems a little excessive.

gfodor 13y ago
i am referring to a 'legit' robot platform that has sufficient sensors, wheel tick counting, etc, to implement full-on SLAM to get around an area of your house or something (built up from raw sensor and control I/O), which I'm assuming is kind of the "write a decent ray tracer" or "write a lisp" of the robotics world. turtlebot is like $2k, for example: http://store.clearpathrobotics.com/ http://store.clearpathrobotics.com/
- AnIrishDuck 13y ago
  The time is coming. Remember when computers were very expensive and out of reach for the average joe? It seems likely robotics will follow the same trajectory. The next generation will probably be playing around with $50-100 robotic toys analogous to today's Raspberry Pi.
  - jmpe 13y ago
    It's coming but robotics has a major obstacle: transferring power to locomotion. Ideally, we'd have something like a synthetic muscle that converts electricity to work. Instead we have all sorts of servo/hydraulics based actuators. Because of this robotics have a problem with elegant design (anything that doesn't run on wheels) and power/autonomy. There are advances out there, but as long as one can't buy a strand of synthetic muscle for a few dollars it's not going to progress that much.
    - moocowduckquack 13y ago
      Tendons on linear motors seems like a good approach. http://www.roboy.org/ http://www.roboy.org/ Also, there are shape memory alloys and they are essentially a strand of synthetic muscle for a few dollars. You could concievable bundle them together to make a larger muscle, but you will probably have to do some active cooling if you want any sort of decent response curve and even then motors can be a lot faster. What I think we could really do with is a linear actuator with a simple built in clutch that doesn't take power to hold a position.

robotresearcher 13y ago

ROS and Gazebo are Open Source, are used by professional researchers, and are all you need to make a real contribution. You can't afford a robot, but you can simulate a very good one for free. http://www.osrfoundation.org/ http://www.osrfoundation.org/

gfodor 13y ago
The point I was trying to make was that this is great, but at the end of the day my final asset is a little simulator running on my computer that is basically only interesting to other robotics geeks and doesn't actually "do" anything. Some my earliest projects as a programmer were things like photo organization tools, online forum software, ANSI art editors, things that solved a tangible problem and that I could share and others could use. This aspect to it was key in keeping me motivated since it wasn't really a "homework assignment" that solved some abstract problem. I feel like there's a gap here.
- robotresearcher 13y ago
  I assumed the final asset would be your education. But there is a real gap here: You probably don't have any problems that a simple robot would fix. You can buy a Roomba if you want. The killer app for robots is the autonomous car, and that is coming. No one has figured out what you want a robot for in that huge gap. Heartland has a nifty $20K robot that will do light handling tasks. You still don't want one. If you can think of a robot version of the little software projects, good on you.
  - lifeisstillgood 13y ago
    it is however a really good question - not just good on him, but inspiring to us all.
  - jfoster 13y ago
    Is the autonomous car really the robotics killer app? I don't doubt that the autonomous car will reshape more than one industry (real estate, insurance, and transportation spring to mind), but I think proper robots might allow us to shed so many assumptions about what is possible that it's actually currently difficult to imagine all the things they will end up being used for.

mdda 13y ago

Isn't this a role that 3d printing and Quadcopters are filling for like-minded tinkerers? Extension projects : for instance, if one has a quadcopter and a go-pro, then the next problem is figuring out a cheaper gimbal mount (using BLDCs and a micro-controller/gyroscope).

drone 13y ago

I've found the real cost factor is not so much the robotics platforms when you want to make big+specialized things like this (because the robotics platforms specifically designed for one's particular problem space are often few or non-existent) but the hurdle of tool acquisition. That is to say, most people I know working on these sorts of things as hobbies build as much as they buy. A decent small metal lathe runs about $600-1000, a mill drill can be put together for around $1k, CNC router capable of cutting decent size panels of aluminum for around $2k+. You can buy inexpensive robot platforms, but they're small - there's a reason for this. Heavy, powerful components cost real money and someone has to make margin selling them to you, given they paid margin to buy them. High power and high current control systems (motor drivers, motors, etc.) are more difficult and expensive to design than small, low-power units. But, there's nothing stopping you from seeing a design you like, and making it from the raw parts, except a lack of tools (in most cases). > a simple little robot platform moving around my house sensing tape on the floor. Even that will cost me $1000 Huh? You can buy line-following robot kits on Amazon for $30, and there are even cheaper ones out there. > When can I build a robot that will perform real, useful automation that will improve my life, even in some marginal way, not just seem like a cool toy? How can I build a robot that will fetch me a beer or let the dog out or get the mail or something even minor that will make me feel like I am doing something with purpose and a real goal and not a homework assignment to get a robot to perform some meaningless task. Right now, buy some motors, buy some metal stock, bearings, shaft, pulleys, etc. and start designing a machine around them. Long before you get to the algorithms of running a robot, there are the physics of it, the basic electronics knowledge, and the design and machining. > What are some robotics projects that I can build and learn from while and actually use and enjoy, today, relatively cheaply? Small robotic arms are cheap these days - OWI and Lynxmotion make fairly inexpensive arms for learning, small wheeled bases like the Dagu Wild Thumper can carry a small arm for around $250, and are well regarded. You can throw an Arduino or Raspberry Pi in for control put together a Lynxmotion arm and a Dagu base, and for less than $600, you have a platform that can lift small objects and move them around. When you want bigger, make it yourself from what you've learned.

liotier 13y ago
> I've found the real cost factor is not so much the robotics platforms [..] but the hurdle of tool acquisition That's what membership in your local fablab is for.

mmcdan 13y ago

I think that there are a lot of professional-quality robotics projects that one can do, if you look at specialties that use robots. "Robot" is a loaded term that conjures up generalized images of the stuff you read and see in movies. Look into keywords like "automation", "mechatronics", etc... Examples: Silicon wafer handlers, pick-and-place machines, vacuum cleaners, beer pourers, recycling sorters, package handlers, CNC machines, etc... An especially interesting field is open-source prosthetics. There are prosumers making these types of robotics projects in their garages/local hackerspaces. There are many online forums where people sharing their builds as well, and many times these builds are actually used in production situations. Also a high-quality robotics platform in no way needs to cost $1000. If you're on a budget just go to a local hobby shop, spend $100 on a chassis + wheels + motors and order some $0.10 sensors online.

protomyth 13y ago

I've been wondering about this for a while given I currently work for a community college. Skipping the "robot engineer" degree I would expect to show up, what the heck kind of training would be needed for a "robot technician and repair" vocational program?

noonespecial 13y ago

All of your points are good but, keep in mind, a robot that is capable of changing your physical world for the better is capable of doing the opposite. A robot that can get you a beer can also drop one on your toe. For this reason, I expect the "personal robot revolution" to occur at the nexus of wealthy/non-litigious. I'm not quite sure where that is maximized on earth at the moment, but I'm quite certain its not the USA. (My current bet is Chinese cities)