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One thing I don't understand about long-term unemployment is why you wouldn't immediately start freelancing if you couldn't find a job. Start a company, take oc

One thing I don't understand about long-term unemployment is why you wouldn't immediately start freelancing if you couldn't find a job. Start a company, take occasional contracts, and list that on your resume. Boom, no employment gap. Can someone explain why people don't just do that instead of complaining about "discrimination?" Heck, I myself would never hire someone who had been unemployed for a year and lacked the ability to either get a job or start their own thing.

pmjordan 13y ago
Easier said than done for most kinds of work.
michaelochurch 13y ago
Heck, I myself would never hire someone who had been unemployed for a year and lacked the ability to either get a job or start their own thing. No matter how good you are, long-term unemployment will fuck up your confidence, especially after 50 when you're supposed to have your shit together. I've seen it happen to some really stellar people. Financial stress poisons everything, and only a small percentage of people (maybe 5%) can prevent that sense/fear of letting their family down and being a drain on society from crushing them. Trust me on this one. It's easy as hell to find work (consulting or full-time) when things are going well, especially in our industry. It's not so easy for people who take a fall, especially when it's unexpected.
coldcode 13y ago
Man that's a myopic attitude. I guess you've never been unemployed, low on money, and living in a area with few opportunities. Sure your statement is easy in the Bay Area to say, but try the middle of the country. Trying being older where no one is willing to even interview you despite your skill set being up to date. Ever start a company when you have trouble paying the mortgage? Not being surrounded by entrepreneurial friends willing to jump in with you? Can't move because no one is buying your crappy house and your kids are hungry? Put long hours into a job with old technology that went bust and now you really are out of date? There are lots of reason people wind up having trouble finding a job. Saying you wouldn't hire them because of all the challenges they might be facing is like saying poor people suck because they have no money. Sorry to get all ranty but that is exactly what the author is talking about. I've been there a few times and it wasn't due to a lack of effort in trying to start something and casting a wide net. Good people exist even if they haven't worked in a while, it's not like they suddenly dried up and died.
- netfire 13y ago
  I might agree with you in other fields, but not in technology. There's no good reason (provided you have the ability to work) to have a 6 month to a year gap in your resume where you have nothing to show. You don't have to start a company (in the entrepreneurial sense) to do freelance/contract work. There are tons of remote opportunities. Even if you can't find a job during that time, there's still things you can do to improve your chances of getting employed. Start learning new technologies, attend/start a local meetup, build a website, volunteer, take online courses (many of which are free or low-cost), answer questions on StackOverflow, contribute to projects on GitHub. The worst thing you can do is to just interview and wonder why you aren't getting any offers. Technology is a rapidly changing field, if you can't get a job with your current skill set, do something about it and show that on your resume.
ryandrake 13y ago
Well, it's not as if one can just snap one's fingers and line up a freelancing gig. The reason people don't "immediately start freelancing" is the same as the reason they don't immediately just go out and get a job.
- morgante 13y ago
  Maybe I wasn't clear. This doesn't have to be a real company in the sense that it actually generates profit. All you need to do is file for DBA and start accepting really low-paid gigs off a site like elancer. And yes, you can literally just snap your fingers to get those. The point is you're not starting the company to actually succeed. You're just starting it to list something besides unemployment on your resume and hence get a real job.
  - mgkimsal 13y ago
    I get your point, but it really isn't as easy as that. "All you need to do is file for DBA and start accepting really low-paid gigs off a site like elancer." If you're going to bother to be on elance/odesk/etc, you'll have a public profile. To get any decent work there, you'll have to have a good public profile, which can be tarnished by any one of the people you work for making extremely outlandish and ever-changing demands, with the threat of a 'bad review' hanging over your head. Furthermore, there are always dozens (at least) people vying for the $100 gigs - you can't just 'snap your fingers' and get one (or several). And again, even if you could get one, it's not really the sort of work you want to do (in many cases). Your point about labeling yourself an independent contractor is, in itself, not bad, but it's partially just a smoke screen - doesn't really help pay the bills on day 1. And even more to the point, there are a number of companies that won't hire people who've been freelance/contract for any period of time - they see it as the person being too willing to be 'disloyal' or 'job hop away' at a moment's notice. Labelling yourself as a contractor or independent business during unemployment period is definitely one way to explain a long gap, but it's not a silver bullet.
    - johnjlocke 13y ago
      People have a different perspective on life when they are 20 years old as opposed to 30, 40, or 50. Elance is definitely not a way to make a living or be taken seriously by a potential employer.
woofyman 13y ago
At 51, I resigned from a company I had worked for 18 years when evil people bought the company. I was primarily a c++ developer. At the same time my long term relationship ended and my mom died six weeks after a cancer diagnosis. It took six months for me to get interested in coding again. I started experimenting with Processing then developed an ios opengl based app. I was out of work for 13 months. Now I develop in Lua, CoffeeScript, javascript, angular, php, Java, Clojure, Actionscript. All self taught while on the job. I'm thankful that someone gave me this opportunity. Otherwise I'd still probably be unemployed.
- yaddayadda 13y ago
  Can you provide any more details on how/why someone gave you that opportunity? Was it a friend? Friend of a friend? Did you apply for a Lua, javascript, angular, php, Java, Clojure, Actionscript position that you weren't qualified for, but did a good job of selling the transferability of your c++ skills? I'm genuinely interested in the details and any lessons you can share.
  - woofyman 13y ago
    When my ios app hit the App Store, I send a message to my linkedin connections. The man who hired me was a former colleague of mine. He knew I had to ability to learn any new technology that I put my mind to.
    - yaddayadda 13y ago
      Thank you!
  - woofyman 13y ago
    The evil people who bought us were then purchased by a major Corporation who later had to write down billions of dollars because of alleged financial improprieties (cooking the books to make their stock more valuable)
    - 13y ago
Bahamut 13y ago
This is a naive viewpoint, and exactly the signs of someone would would be a bad talent evaluator. I will give a synopsis of my own anecdote. I was once a PhD student, ABD at a top 15 university in math, with undergrad degrees in math and physics. I had very competitive all around scores on standardized exams, all 90th percentile and up. Upon leaving grad school, I became homeless & destitute, even depressed at times, but I still had the will to put on a good face and still had the intelligence & drive to learn & excel. After finally landing a junior dev position 3 years after grad school (after teaching myself programming), I quickly developed and took on a senior dev position in under a year. By your stated viewpoint, you would have missed a bargain stellar talent who was open to any opportunity offered to him. Ability & willingness to learn/execute a skill isn't inextricably linked to employment periods - that is a terrible fallacy.
- pmiller2 13y ago
  I'd be interested in talking more with you about your experiences. My email is in my profile. Shoot me a message sometime.
melling 13y ago
Dude, you're 20 years old. In 30 years, there's a good chance that you won't be using any of the technology that you're using today. Spend the next 20 years doing the same technology in a big company and you might find yourself with a big problem. There are other ways to screw yourself too. The good news is that you'll be making $750,000 a year as a developer. Just hang onto that job...
- morgante 13y ago
  > In 30 years, there's a good chance that you won't be using any of the technology that you're using today. Spend the next 20 years doing the same technology in a big company and you might find yourself with a big problem. I don't doubt that it'd be different technology. But why would I not evolve? I'm constantly learning new languages and techniques through side projects. People who aren't constantly pushing themselves to learn more probably should get left behind.
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    Some long-term projects may be so complex and involving that they comsume a developer's entire cognitive capacity, leaving too little time and energy for side projects. These are the kinds of niche industry projects that can be incredibly fascinating, but "invisible" to other companies.
rhizome 13y ago
Heck, I myself would never hire someone who had been unemployed for a year and lacked the ability to either get a job or start their own thing. Do you personally hire people?
RougeFemme 13y ago
Not everyone has what it takes to start a company. Conversely, not all companies want someone who has started a company. Granted, that company's culture would probably be a poor fit for you, but the fact is that not all companies regard starting a company in the same way. And re: taking contracts. . .you still must interview for contracts. And while companies may be willing to take more of a risk with contractors than with full-time employees, biases still exist during the interview process. You can be passed over for contract positions just as you can be passed over for full-time positions.

pmjordan 13y ago

Easier said than done for most kinds of work.

michaelochurch 13y ago

Heck, I myself would never hire someone who had been unemployed for a year and lacked the ability to either get a job or start their own thing. No matter how good you are, long-term unemployment will fuck up your confidence, especially after 50 when you're supposed to have your shit together. I've seen it happen to some really stellar people. Financial stress poisons everything, and only a small percentage of people (maybe 5%) can prevent that sense/fear of letting their family down and being a drain on society from crushing them. Trust me on this one. It's easy as hell to find work (consulting or full-time) when things are going well, especially in our industry. It's not so easy for people who take a fall, especially when it's unexpected.

coldcode 13y ago

Man that's a myopic attitude. I guess you've never been unemployed, low on money, and living in a area with few opportunities. Sure your statement is easy in the Bay Area to say, but try the middle of the country. Trying being older where no one is willing to even interview you despite your skill set being up to date. Ever start a company when you have trouble paying the mortgage? Not being surrounded by entrepreneurial friends willing to jump in with you? Can't move because no one is buying your crappy house and your kids are hungry? Put long hours into a job with old technology that went bust and now you really are out of date? There are lots of reason people wind up having trouble finding a job. Saying you wouldn't hire them because of all the challenges they might be facing is like saying poor people suck because they have no money. Sorry to get all ranty but that is exactly what the author is talking about. I've been there a few times and it wasn't due to a lack of effort in trying to start something and casting a wide net. Good people exist even if they haven't worked in a while, it's not like they suddenly dried up and died.

netfire 13y ago
I might agree with you in other fields, but not in technology. There's no good reason (provided you have the ability to work) to have a 6 month to a year gap in your resume where you have nothing to show. You don't have to start a company (in the entrepreneurial sense) to do freelance/contract work. There are tons of remote opportunities. Even if you can't find a job during that time, there's still things you can do to improve your chances of getting employed. Start learning new technologies, attend/start a local meetup, build a website, volunteer, take online courses (many of which are free or low-cost), answer questions on StackOverflow, contribute to projects on GitHub. The worst thing you can do is to just interview and wonder why you aren't getting any offers. Technology is a rapidly changing field, if you can't get a job with your current skill set, do something about it and show that on your resume.

ryandrake 13y ago

Well, it's not as if one can just snap one's fingers and line up a freelancing gig. The reason people don't "immediately start freelancing" is the same as the reason they don't immediately just go out and get a job.

morgante 13y ago
Maybe I wasn't clear. This doesn't have to be a real company in the sense that it actually generates profit. All you need to do is file for DBA and start accepting really low-paid gigs off a site like elancer. And yes, you can literally just snap your fingers to get those. The point is you're not starting the company to actually succeed. You're just starting it to list something besides unemployment on your resume and hence get a real job.
- mgkimsal 13y ago
  I get your point, but it really isn't as easy as that. "All you need to do is file for DBA and start accepting really low-paid gigs off a site like elancer." If you're going to bother to be on elance/odesk/etc, you'll have a public profile. To get any decent work there, you'll have to have a good public profile, which can be tarnished by any one of the people you work for making extremely outlandish and ever-changing demands, with the threat of a 'bad review' hanging over your head. Furthermore, there are always dozens (at least) people vying for the $100 gigs - you can't just 'snap your fingers' and get one (or several). And again, even if you could get one, it's not really the sort of work you want to do (in many cases). Your point about labeling yourself an independent contractor is, in itself, not bad, but it's partially just a smoke screen - doesn't really help pay the bills on day 1. And even more to the point, there are a number of companies that won't hire people who've been freelance/contract for any period of time - they see it as the person being too willing to be 'disloyal' or 'job hop away' at a moment's notice. Labelling yourself as a contractor or independent business during unemployment period is definitely one way to explain a long gap, but it's not a silver bullet.
  - johnjlocke 13y ago
    People have a different perspective on life when they are 20 years old as opposed to 30, 40, or 50. Elance is definitely not a way to make a living or be taken seriously by a potential employer.

woofyman 13y ago

At 51, I resigned from a company I had worked for 18 years when evil people bought the company. I was primarily a c++ developer. At the same time my long term relationship ended and my mom died six weeks after a cancer diagnosis. It took six months for me to get interested in coding again. I started experimenting with Processing then developed an ios opengl based app. I was out of work for 13 months. Now I develop in Lua, CoffeeScript, javascript, angular, php, Java, Clojure, Actionscript. All self taught while on the job. I'm thankful that someone gave me this opportunity. Otherwise I'd still probably be unemployed.

yaddayadda 13y ago
Can you provide any more details on how/why someone gave you that opportunity? Was it a friend? Friend of a friend? Did you apply for a Lua, javascript, angular, php, Java, Clojure, Actionscript position that you weren't qualified for, but did a good job of selling the transferability of your c++ skills? I'm genuinely interested in the details and any lessons you can share.
- woofyman 13y ago
  When my ios app hit the App Store, I send a message to my linkedin connections. The man who hired me was a former colleague of mine. He knew I had to ability to learn any new technology that I put my mind to.
  - yaddayadda 13y ago
    Thank you!
- woofyman 13y ago
  The evil people who bought us were then purchased by a major Corporation who later had to write down billions of dollars because of alleged financial improprieties (cooking the books to make their stock more valuable)
  - 13y ago

Bahamut 13y ago

This is a naive viewpoint, and exactly the signs of someone would would be a bad talent evaluator. I will give a synopsis of my own anecdote. I was once a PhD student, ABD at a top 15 university in math, with undergrad degrees in math and physics. I had very competitive all around scores on standardized exams, all 90th percentile and up. Upon leaving grad school, I became homeless & destitute, even depressed at times, but I still had the will to put on a good face and still had the intelligence & drive to learn & excel. After finally landing a junior dev position 3 years after grad school (after teaching myself programming), I quickly developed and took on a senior dev position in under a year. By your stated viewpoint, you would have missed a bargain stellar talent who was open to any opportunity offered to him. Ability & willingness to learn/execute a skill isn't inextricably linked to employment periods - that is a terrible fallacy.

pmiller2 13y ago
I'd be interested in talking more with you about your experiences. My email is in my profile. Shoot me a message sometime.

melling 13y ago

Dude, you're 20 years old. In 30 years, there's a good chance that you won't be using any of the technology that you're using today. Spend the next 20 years doing the same technology in a big company and you might find yourself with a big problem. There are other ways to screw yourself too. The good news is that you'll be making $750,000 a year as a developer. Just hang onto that job...

morgante 13y ago
> In 30 years, there's a good chance that you won't be using any of the technology that you're using today. Spend the next 20 years doing the same technology in a big company and you might find yourself with a big problem. I don't doubt that it'd be different technology. But why would I not evolve? I'm constantly learning new languages and techniques through side projects. People who aren't constantly pushing themselves to learn more probably should get left behind.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  Some long-term projects may be so complex and involving that they comsume a developer's entire cognitive capacity, leaving too little time and energy for side projects. These are the kinds of niche industry projects that can be incredibly fascinating, but "invisible" to other companies.

rhizome 13y ago

Heck, I myself would never hire someone who had been unemployed for a year and lacked the ability to either get a job or start their own thing. Do you personally hire people?

RougeFemme 13y ago

Not everyone has what it takes to start a company. Conversely, not all companies want someone who has started a company. Granted, that company's culture would probably be a poor fit for you, but the fact is that not all companies regard starting a company in the same way. And re: taking contracts. . .you still must interview for contracts. And while companies may be willing to take more of a risk with contractors than with full-time employees, biases still exist during the interview process. You can be passed over for contract positions just as you can be passed over for full-time positions.