6 ms·

Seems some small farmers disagree with your "facts" 1&2: Joel Salatin of polyface farms makes more than his neighbors (particularly on a per acre basis) by thr

Seems some small farmers disagree with your "facts" 1&2: Joel Salatin of polyface farms makes more than his neighbors (particularly on a per acre basis) by throwing away "big agribusiness" truisms like single purpose machinery, monocultures, and chemical stimulants for the land. He uses symbiosis instead, creates a premium product that his customers are willing to pay a premium for, all without subsidization (iirc).

CapitalistCartr 13y ago
There is a small market for specialization; my parents did it well. But the bulk of food comes from the farm rmason is talking about, the massive amounts of grain, vegetables, and meat that feeds America. The plural of anecdote isn't data.
- contingencies 13y ago
  The plural of snark isn't intelligence, either.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    If your parent's post ruffled your snark-feathers, your sensibilities may be... overly sensitive.
- maerF0x0 13y ago
  Also, dont believe that just because lots of people are fed by the kind of farming that rmason talks about that the "older" ways are no viable. Supposedly the old ways were far more resource efficient in every variable except human time.
Groxx 13y ago
There's a premium market for almost anything, and it almost always is an exception to whatever runs the non-premium side of the market. TBH I don't think this has any effect on what the root comment said.
Avshalom 13y ago
You can not feed a nation on "a premium product" that you have to "pay a premium for" Which is not to say I have any strong investment in the belief that current large scale farming is optimal however I'm poor but inconveniently need food from time to time, so unfortunately I've gotta throw my weight in with the "what ever gets me rock bottom grains and legumes" camp.
- xradionut 13y ago
  "You can not feed a nation on "a premium product" that you have to "pay a premium for"" Yes you can. You just need fewer people to feed.
  - eip 13y ago
    Monsanto is working on that with their GM program. https://www.google.com/search?q=monsanto+sterilization https://www.google.com/search?q=monsanto+sterilization http://www.larouchepub.com/other/1995/2249_kissinger_food.html http://www.larouchepub.com/other/1995/2249_kissinger_food.ht...
    - ihsw 13y ago
      You have no idea how comforting it is to see a Google search link that doesn't have a bunch bullshit parameters at the end of it.
    - rmason 13y ago
      You are making an emotional and anti-science argument. Even having to quote from a Lyndon LaRouche website. Here's a few articles that counter your argument: http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/bad-science-checklist-gmo-opponents/ http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/bad-s... http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/are_gmo_foods_safe_opponents_are_skewing_the_science_to_scare_people_.html http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201... People have done seed breeding since the days of Mendel. The only difference today is that we have better tools.
bryanlarsen 13y ago
A typical dryland farmer can produce a bushel of wheat (60 pounds) for less than $3/bushel, assuming typical weather. That's all that 99% of consumers care about. Everything else is niche. Universities are working hard to bring these techniques to the mass-market farmers. GPS-enabled equipment has already let farmers massively reduce the amount of herbicides, pesticides and fertilizers they use. Machine vision technology shows great promise in bringing the rest.
- gweinberg 13y ago
  By my math, that comes out to a nickle a pound. Great that we can be that efficient, but it seems to me there should be a fair number of people who are rich enough and picky enough that they would be willing to pay a little extra for a premium product.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    Of course there are. It's called "Whole Foods Market". The sad humor is the real profit is to be had when you can sell people nickle-a-pound wheat, and make them think it's premium product.
  - bryanlarsen 13y ago
    Consumers in the first world wouldn't care if they're paying 5 cents or 6 cents for a pound of wheat. But consumers don't buy wheat. They buy sandwhiches from companies who buy bread who buy from companies that make flour from wheat they buy from grain companies who buy wheat from flours. All those companies in the chain care greatly about the cost of product they buy.
LargeWu 13y ago
His yields are also almost certainly less than his neighbors, as well. I love what Salatin is doing, but there are tradeoffs, one being that it probably doesn't scale that well.

CapitalistCartr 13y ago

There is a small market for specialization; my parents did it well. But the bulk of food comes from the farm rmason is talking about, the massive amounts of grain, vegetables, and meat that feeds America. The plural of anecdote isn't data.

contingencies 13y ago
The plural of snark isn't intelligence, either.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  If your parent's post ruffled your snark-feathers, your sensibilities may be... overly sensitive.
maerF0x0 13y ago
Also, dont believe that just because lots of people are fed by the kind of farming that rmason talks about that the "older" ways are no viable. Supposedly the old ways were far more resource efficient in every variable except human time.

Groxx 13y ago

There's a premium market for almost anything, and it almost always is an exception to whatever runs the non-premium side of the market. TBH I don't think this has any effect on what the root comment said.

Avshalom 13y ago

You can not feed a nation on "a premium product" that you have to "pay a premium for" Which is not to say I have any strong investment in the belief that current large scale farming is optimal however I'm poor but inconveniently need food from time to time, so unfortunately I've gotta throw my weight in with the "what ever gets me rock bottom grains and legumes" camp.

xradionut 13y ago
"You can not feed a nation on "a premium product" that you have to "pay a premium for"" Yes you can. You just need fewer people to feed.
- eip 13y ago
  Monsanto is working on that with their GM program. https://www.google.com/search?q=monsanto+sterilization https://www.google.com/search?q=monsanto+sterilization http://www.larouchepub.com/other/1995/2249_kissinger_food.html http://www.larouchepub.com/other/1995/2249_kissinger_food.ht...
  - ihsw 13y ago
    You have no idea how comforting it is to see a Google search link that doesn't have a bunch bullshit parameters at the end of it.
  - rmason 13y ago
    You are making an emotional and anti-science argument. Even having to quote from a Lyndon LaRouche website. Here's a few articles that counter your argument: http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/bad-science-checklist-gmo-opponents/ http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/bad-s... http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/are_gmo_foods_safe_opponents_are_skewing_the_science_to_scare_people_.html http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201... People have done seed breeding since the days of Mendel. The only difference today is that we have better tools.

bryanlarsen 13y ago

A typical dryland farmer can produce a bushel of wheat (60 pounds) for less than $3/bushel, assuming typical weather. That's all that 99% of consumers care about. Everything else is niche. Universities are working hard to bring these techniques to the mass-market farmers. GPS-enabled equipment has already let farmers massively reduce the amount of herbicides, pesticides and fertilizers they use. Machine vision technology shows great promise in bringing the rest.

gweinberg 13y ago
By my math, that comes out to a nickle a pound. Great that we can be that efficient, but it seems to me there should be a fair number of people who are rich enough and picky enough that they would be willing to pay a little extra for a premium product.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Of course there are. It's called "Whole Foods Market". The sad humor is the real profit is to be had when you can sell people nickle-a-pound wheat, and make them think it's premium product.
- bryanlarsen 13y ago
  Consumers in the first world wouldn't care if they're paying 5 cents or 6 cents for a pound of wheat. But consumers don't buy wheat. They buy sandwhiches from companies who buy bread who buy from companies that make flour from wheat they buy from grain companies who buy wheat from flours. All those companies in the chain care greatly about the cost of product they buy.

LargeWu 13y ago

His yields are also almost certainly less than his neighbors, as well. I love what Salatin is doing, but there are tradeoffs, one being that it probably doesn't scale that well.