4 ms·

Property rights are a purely governmental construct. But without them, capitalism doesn't work. Not sure why intellectual property is considered any different.

veganarchocap 13y ago
Property rights are anathema to government construct. The state typically allows illusory property rights, but ultimately can and will defy these and treat them as a non-absolute concept. For instance, you are your own property, but the state defies this by extorting taxation from you. They defy you, and therefore your property in order to gain value from your work. Your work is also a result of your time, expertise and effort, therefore your property. So already tax defies your property rights in two different ways.
- mcv 13y ago
  > Property rights are anathema to government construct That's a big word there, and I suspect it doesn't mean what you think it means. Property rights are a government construct. It's one of the primary reasons why governments exist. Without government to enforce these rights, you have no real claim on what you consider yours. Anyone can come along and take it away, and the only recourse you have is to steal it back, or steal something similar from someone else. Since that's not a very ideal situation, thousands of years ago we decided not to do that anymore, and anyone who still did it, would be punished. That's basically what government is (and I'm amazed I'm even explaining this to anyone over 8 years old).
  - glenra 13y ago
    > Without government to enforce these rights, you have no real claim on what you consider yours. Anyone can come along and take it away, and the only recourse you have is to steal it back, or steal something similar from someone else. [...] That's basically what government is (and I'm amazed I'm even explaining this to anyone over 8 years old) What you are saying is indeed a common conventional wisdom opinion taught in grade school. Thus, people who believe differently might do so because they've thought more about it than an 8-year-old. Perhaps they've looked into the history or the economics of the situation. To remedy your amazement I recommend reading _The Enterprise of Law: Justice Without The State_ by Bruce Benson: http://www.amazon.com/The-Enterprise-Law-Justice-Without/dp/1598130447 http://www.amazon.com/The-Enterprise-Law-Justice-Without/dp/... And also perhaps _The Machinery of Freedom: Guide to a Radical Capitalism_ by David Friedman (which just went out of print - there's a new edition in process but in the meantime you can read the old one for free on the web in pdf form here: http://www.daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf http://www.daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf With or without government to enforce your rights, you can make it hard for people to take stuff away - and even in a government based system we expect you to do that to some degree. You can lock stuff up - put it behind walls and gates. You can guard it yourself. You can get a dog. You can ask or pay other people to guard it. You can install streaming security cameras to help identify miscreants. You can pay private patrols. (There are more private guards than public police in the US) But if somebody still takes your stuff despite your best efforts to protect it, there are several nongovernmental ways to deal with the problem. Some of which work now in the real world. For instance, there are reputational systems (Reporting somebody to a credit agency for bouncing a check is making use of a private rule-enforcement mechanism. As is reporting a bad doctor to their certification board.) When dealing with businesses or known individuals you can post a bond with a third party or use an escrow agency. Or appeal to a private arbitrator - agreements between diamond merchants in NYC are often made on a handshake and handled under Jewish courts and Jewish law that have nothing to do with the government system.) There are other mechanisms that could work but are currently barred or restricted by the government. Competitive private protection agencies could serve most of the same role, were they allowed to do so. It's true that there's no perfect way to defend property without government. But there's also no perfect way to defend it with government. There are pluses and minuses. A private competitive legal system would be more complex, less predictable. But the downside risk of depending on a single monopoly provider for any important service is substantial - and not easily dismissed.
    - mcv 13y ago
      > What you are saying is indeed a common conventional wisdom opinion taught in grade school. Thus, people who believe differently might do so because they've thought more about it than an 8-year-old. Perhaps they've looked into the history or the economics of the situation. Congratulations on that cheap blow suggesting there's something childish and immature about understanding history, government and law. > With or without government to enforce your rights, you can make it hard for people to take stuff away - and even in a government based system we expect you to do that to some degree. You can lock stuff up - put it behind walls and gates. You can guard it yourself. You can get a dog. You can ask or pay other people to guard it. You can install streaming security cameras to help identify miscreants. You can pay private patrols. You do realize that this means only the rich and powerful can defend their property, right? You create a system of might makes right, with the rich and powerful as substitute government. And if you lack the power to defend your property from those more powerful than you, you need the protection form someone who does, which leads to feudalism. Feudalism can certainly work, but it's not preferable to the rule of law, with justice for rich and poor alike.
      - glenra 13y ago
        > You do realize that this means only the rich and powerful can defend their property, right? Nope, I don't realize that at all. It's a common objection made by people who don't understand how private legal systems work and have never looked into it. You'd know better if you had read the books I recommended above. There is no way to perfectly defend property - "utopia is not an option" - but you can raise the cost to the criminal in various ways. The cheapest is by buying a lock. Even very poor people can and do have locks on their doors or bars on their windows. Another cheap option is to organize a volunteer community watch program. A little more expensive but still quite doable is for any GROUP of people to form a neighborhood association which hires a guard for the neighborhood - this has often been done by a local merchant's association. The poor currently pay a rather large amount of money for "protection" in the form of police salaries paid via sales tax and property tax - but they don't GET protection for their money! The government-run police primarily serve the interests of the rich and powerful and their own interests - they don't do much to protect the poor. In a private system you get what you pay for and pay for what you get - people who hired police protection would actually GET police protection. > You create a system of might makes right Nope. In fact, putting government in charge is a system of might makes right, one prone to terrible abuses. Decentralizing power makes it less prone to abuse. I'm talking about actual rule of law, which does protect the rich and poor alike. > And if you lack the power to defend your property from those more powerful than you, you need the protection form someone who does, which leads to feudalism Here's another option: Consider that by social convention when you aggress against me I have a claim against you for damages. Suppose I can sell that claim. If I can afford to prosecute you directly I do so; if not, I sell my claim against you to someone who is more powerful. But selling a claim is an ordinary business transaction - it doesn't give the buyer any special power over the seller. (BTW, wikipedia says "There is no broadly accepted modern definition of feudalism". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism#Definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism#Definition ) Tell you what. If you just want to read a SINGLE CHAPTER of MoF that most clearly addresses your concerns, it is quite short, it is titled "POLICE, COURTS, AND LAWS---ON THE MARKET", and it can be read online here: http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Libertarian/Machinery_of_Freedom/MofF_Chapter_29.html http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Libertarian/Machinery_of_Freed...
samolang 13y ago
Property rights are for protecting scarce resources. Intellectual property is not a scarce resource.
- mcv 13y ago
  That's why capitalist science is a stupid idea in the first place, but it's still how the current system works. Corporations like artificial scarcity, so stuff can be owned, capitalized and exploited for profit.
  - samolang 13y ago
    > Corporations like artificial scarcity, so stuff can be owned, capitalized and exploited for profit. That may be true of some corporations (most notably in companies that have already achieved success and thus have an incentive to maintain the status quo), but it's not a universal rule [1] and patents aren't the only method of maintaining artificial scarcity [2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GEAGdwHXfLQ#t=735 https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GE... [2] http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-patents-2012-11 http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-patents-2012-11
teddyh 13y ago
The usual argument is that they are, in economic terms, non-rivalrous and non-scarce.
glenra 13y ago
> Property rights are a purely governmental construct. purely governmental? Really? Property rights exist wherever people successfully claim stuff and are willing to defend their claim. Even dogs have property rights (and help us have them!). The idea of property is a social construct, not a government one. When it comes to land, the government role started by setting up a system where people could register the pre-existing territorial claims they'd made under the local customs, thereby making it easier to arbitrate disputes. But you don't need government to do either of those functions. (Neither running a registry nor arbitrating a dispute requires a monopoly of force, so both of those can be done privately. And have been, and sometimes still are.)

veganarchocap 13y ago

Property rights are anathema to government construct. The state typically allows illusory property rights, but ultimately can and will defy these and treat them as a non-absolute concept. For instance, you are your own property, but the state defies this by extorting taxation from you. They defy you, and therefore your property in order to gain value from your work. Your work is also a result of your time, expertise and effort, therefore your property. So already tax defies your property rights in two different ways.

mcv 13y ago
> Property rights are anathema to government construct That's a big word there, and I suspect it doesn't mean what you think it means. Property rights are a government construct. It's one of the primary reasons why governments exist. Without government to enforce these rights, you have no real claim on what you consider yours. Anyone can come along and take it away, and the only recourse you have is to steal it back, or steal something similar from someone else. Since that's not a very ideal situation, thousands of years ago we decided not to do that anymore, and anyone who still did it, would be punished. That's basically what government is (and I'm amazed I'm even explaining this to anyone over 8 years old).
- glenra 13y ago
  > Without government to enforce these rights, you have no real claim on what you consider yours. Anyone can come along and take it away, and the only recourse you have is to steal it back, or steal something similar from someone else. [...] That's basically what government is (and I'm amazed I'm even explaining this to anyone over 8 years old) What you are saying is indeed a common conventional wisdom opinion taught in grade school. Thus, people who believe differently might do so because they've thought more about it than an 8-year-old. Perhaps they've looked into the history or the economics of the situation. To remedy your amazement I recommend reading _The Enterprise of Law: Justice Without The State_ by Bruce Benson: http://www.amazon.com/The-Enterprise-Law-Justice-Without/dp/1598130447 http://www.amazon.com/The-Enterprise-Law-Justice-Without/dp/... And also perhaps _The Machinery of Freedom: Guide to a Radical Capitalism_ by David Friedman (which just went out of print - there's a new edition in process but in the meantime you can read the old one for free on the web in pdf form here: http://www.daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf http://www.daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf With or without government to enforce your rights, you can make it hard for people to take stuff away - and even in a government based system we expect you to do that to some degree. You can lock stuff up - put it behind walls and gates. You can guard it yourself. You can get a dog. You can ask or pay other people to guard it. You can install streaming security cameras to help identify miscreants. You can pay private patrols. (There are more private guards than public police in the US) But if somebody still takes your stuff despite your best efforts to protect it, there are several nongovernmental ways to deal with the problem. Some of which work now in the real world. For instance, there are reputational systems (Reporting somebody to a credit agency for bouncing a check is making use of a private rule-enforcement mechanism. As is reporting a bad doctor to their certification board.) When dealing with businesses or known individuals you can post a bond with a third party or use an escrow agency. Or appeal to a private arbitrator - agreements between diamond merchants in NYC are often made on a handshake and handled under Jewish courts and Jewish law that have nothing to do with the government system.) There are other mechanisms that could work but are currently barred or restricted by the government. Competitive private protection agencies could serve most of the same role, were they allowed to do so. It's true that there's no perfect way to defend property without government. But there's also no perfect way to defend it with government. There are pluses and minuses. A private competitive legal system would be more complex, less predictable. But the downside risk of depending on a single monopoly provider for any important service is substantial - and not easily dismissed.
  - mcv 13y ago
    > What you are saying is indeed a common conventional wisdom opinion taught in grade school. Thus, people who believe differently might do so because they've thought more about it than an 8-year-old. Perhaps they've looked into the history or the economics of the situation. Congratulations on that cheap blow suggesting there's something childish and immature about understanding history, government and law. > With or without government to enforce your rights, you can make it hard for people to take stuff away - and even in a government based system we expect you to do that to some degree. You can lock stuff up - put it behind walls and gates. You can guard it yourself. You can get a dog. You can ask or pay other people to guard it. You can install streaming security cameras to help identify miscreants. You can pay private patrols. You do realize that this means only the rich and powerful can defend their property, right? You create a system of might makes right, with the rich and powerful as substitute government. And if you lack the power to defend your property from those more powerful than you, you need the protection form someone who does, which leads to feudalism. Feudalism can certainly work, but it's not preferable to the rule of law, with justice for rich and poor alike.
    - glenra 13y ago
      > You do realize that this means only the rich and powerful can defend their property, right? Nope, I don't realize that at all. It's a common objection made by people who don't understand how private legal systems work and have never looked into it. You'd know better if you had read the books I recommended above. There is no way to perfectly defend property - "utopia is not an option" - but you can raise the cost to the criminal in various ways. The cheapest is by buying a lock. Even very poor people can and do have locks on their doors or bars on their windows. Another cheap option is to organize a volunteer community watch program. A little more expensive but still quite doable is for any GROUP of people to form a neighborhood association which hires a guard for the neighborhood - this has often been done by a local merchant's association. The poor currently pay a rather large amount of money for "protection" in the form of police salaries paid via sales tax and property tax - but they don't GET protection for their money! The government-run police primarily serve the interests of the rich and powerful and their own interests - they don't do much to protect the poor. In a private system you get what you pay for and pay for what you get - people who hired police protection would actually GET police protection. > You create a system of might makes right Nope. In fact, putting government in charge is a system of might makes right, one prone to terrible abuses. Decentralizing power makes it less prone to abuse. I'm talking about actual rule of law, which does protect the rich and poor alike. > And if you lack the power to defend your property from those more powerful than you, you need the protection form someone who does, which leads to feudalism Here's another option: Consider that by social convention when you aggress against me I have a claim against you for damages. Suppose I can sell that claim. If I can afford to prosecute you directly I do so; if not, I sell my claim against you to someone who is more powerful. But selling a claim is an ordinary business transaction - it doesn't give the buyer any special power over the seller. (BTW, wikipedia says "There is no broadly accepted modern definition of feudalism". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism#Definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudalism#Definition ) Tell you what. If you just want to read a SINGLE CHAPTER of MoF that most clearly addresses your concerns, it is quite short, it is titled "POLICE, COURTS, AND LAWS---ON THE MARKET", and it can be read online here: http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Libertarian/Machinery_of_Freedom/MofF_Chapter_29.html http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Libertarian/Machinery_of_Freed...

samolang 13y ago

Property rights are for protecting scarce resources. Intellectual property is not a scarce resource.

mcv 13y ago
That's why capitalist science is a stupid idea in the first place, but it's still how the current system works. Corporations like artificial scarcity, so stuff can be owned, capitalized and exploited for profit.
- samolang 13y ago
  > Corporations like artificial scarcity, so stuff can be owned, capitalized and exploited for profit. That may be true of some corporations (most notably in companies that have already achieved success and thus have an incentive to maintain the status quo), but it's not a universal rule [1] and patents aren't the only method of maintaining artificial scarcity [2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GEAGdwHXfLQ#t=735 https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GE... [2] http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-patents-2012-11 http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-patents-2012-11

teddyh 13y ago

The usual argument is that they are, in economic terms, non-rivalrous and non-scarce.

glenra 13y ago

> Property rights are a purely governmental construct. purely governmental? Really? Property rights exist wherever people successfully claim stuff and are willing to defend their claim. Even dogs have property rights (and help us have them!). The idea of property is a social construct, not a government one. When it comes to land, the government role started by setting up a system where people could register the pre-existing territorial claims they'd made under the local customs, thereby making it easier to arbitrate disputes. But you don't need government to do either of those functions. (Neither running a registry nor arbitrating a dispute requires a monopoly of force, so both of those can be done privately. And have been, and sometimes still are.)