4 ms·

It's a procedure that exists, but it's nowhere near standard procedure in Denmark, as far as I know. The 4-week solitary remand is usually used for terrorism su

by mjn 13y ago

It's a procedure that exists, but it's nowhere near standard procedure in Denmark, as far as I know. The 4-week solitary remand is usually used for terrorism suspects, situations more like this one: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2012/04/29/Denmark-to-hold-terror-suspects-4-weeks/UPI-50921335708303/ http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2012/04/29/Denmark-to... Even violent criminals don't usually have such a procedure applied. If you got in a knife fight and stabbed someone, you might well be held pending trial, but not usually in solitary confinement. For non-violent offenses, being held pending trial at all is rare. My guess is that the relationship to police databases got this filed under either "terrorism" or something that rhymes with it, and therefore it's being treated as a "national security" crime rather than an ordinary crime.

benologist 13y ago
Even the worst violent offenders are heavily limited in the number of victims they can produce. Using a computer can affect many orders of magnitude beyond that so why exactly should "non-violent" prisoners be given more freedoms and better treatment? Is this "less bad" than mugging someone? "He is accused of braking into the danish police systems, including out driver license database that holds our Civil Registration System number witch can easily be used to identity fraud" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6897572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6897572
- DanBC 13y ago
  It's not about bad or less bad, it's about risk to people. A violent criminal poses greater risk of harm, and thus is locked up. A non violent criminal can commit very many offences, and sometimes those offences cause great distress (fraud which removes a person's life savings, for example), and their access to the tools of their criminal trade should be restricted, but that doesn't usually require solitary confinement.
  - benologist 13y ago
    I would argue solitary is the only rationale option for non-violent crime like this - anything less requires the person to respect limitations on communication they can circumvent if they want.
    - mjn 13y ago
      There are sometimes legitimate concerns, but I think they tend to be overblown in the case of computer crime. Along the lines of the insane worries that Kevin Mitnick couldn't be granted access to a phone because he might hack teh USA by whistling into the phone, I think there is often a weird witchcraft-style reaction to computer crime, where the defendant is seen as some kind of nearly omnipotent wizard.
    - xerophtye 13y ago
      ummm.... I thought violent criminals are kept in solitary confinement because they are dangerous to their fellow inmates. A hacker may be able to cause more harm to more people IF he is outside and has a computer. He can't exactly destroy the lives of other inmates while he is in prison...
  - dsrguru 13y ago
    First of all, let's be clear that risk of fraud to an individual is often as harmful, if not more harmful, than risk of violence to an individual. Fraud that takes out a person's entire life savings, even if the victim doesn't commit suicide, typically does more lasting damage than, say, the average case of assault and battery. And that's not just true with identity theft. Stealing money alone can cause people to commit suicide as in Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme. So then the question becomes which type of criminal is more likely to commit more crimes if not in solitary confinement. Obviously it depends on the specific kind of criminal but in general, I'd say perpetrators of fraud if they have Internet access and violent criminals if they don't have Internet access.
    - downer89 13y ago
      Fraud that takes out a person's entire life savings, even if the victim doesn't commit suicide, typically does more lasting damage than, say, the average case of assault and battery. I disagree with you in every possible way, and I think you've just decided, off the top of your head, to make that up because you think it sounds good. You might be able to google some statistics, but I'm not drinking your kool-aid. Assault resulting in serious injury is categorically worse than fraud or identity theft, and far more common.
      - dsrguru 13y ago
        > I disagree with you in every possible way, and I think you've just decided, off the top of your head, to make that up because you think it sounds good. That tone was completely uncalled for, and assuming you were the one who downvoted me, downvoting me for disagreeing was equally uncalled for. This isn't reddit. > You might be able to google some statistics, but I'm not drinking your kool-aid. If you're going on gut feel rather than providing any statistics to the contrary, don't criticize me for going on gut feel. > Assault resulting in serious injury is categorically worse than fraud or identity theft I agree that assault resulting in long-term or permanent injury is generally worse than monetary fraud and perhaps partial identity theft (using one's information to commit an isolated instance of fraud). However, it's certainly not "categorically worse" than all forms of fraud or identity theft. Even breaking someone's legs (one of the worst forms of [non-sexual] assault) generally ruins a person's life less than full identity theft and, by definition, less than stealing so much from someone that they are driven to suicide. > and far more common If you mean some class of assault is more common than some class of fraud or identity theft, I don't know if you're right or wrong, but that has no bearing on the rate at which a particular criminal will commit repeat offenses. If on the other hand you meant that assault in which there's serious injury is the most common kind of assault, we'd have to consult Google but that seems highly improbable.
Svip 13y ago
Actually, solitary confinement is pretty standard in Denmark. And for that reason, the UN has even raised concerns about it. Not that anything has happened in this regard.
- cylinder 13y ago
  Very odd that supposedly advanced Denmark would impose barbaric solitary confinement. How we as a species still get away with this tactic is beyond me.
  - tedunangst 13y ago
    Definitions of advanced and barbaric vary wildly.
    - mjn 13y ago
      In particular, what Denmark considers really barbaric are long sentences: 10, 20, 30+ years are quite unusual. Most sentences are less than 2 years, with a handful of severe sentences in the high single-digit range.
  - Amygaz 13y ago
    The list of things that are beyond me, and probably many member on this board can be quite long. A radical example is: who decided that planet Earth belonged to a bunch of corrupted politicians and executives and not the rest of us, preventing people to roam freely, and to freely decide where they can live, work, raise their family...
    - macspoofing 13y ago
      200,000 years of history
    - sounds 13y ago
      To argue against the line "it's only natural that the corrupt seize power" look no further than the various cases where decency and enlightenment prevailed. Never give in — never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

by mjn 13y ago

benologist 13y ago

Even the worst violent offenders are heavily limited in the number of victims they can produce. Using a computer can affect many orders of magnitude beyond that so why exactly should "non-violent" prisoners be given more freedoms and better treatment? Is this "less bad" than mugging someone? "He is accused of braking into the danish police systems, including out driver license database that holds our Civil Registration System number witch can easily be used to identity fraud" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6897572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6897572

DanBC 13y ago
It's not about bad or less bad, it's about risk to people. A violent criminal poses greater risk of harm, and thus is locked up. A non violent criminal can commit very many offences, and sometimes those offences cause great distress (fraud which removes a person's life savings, for example), and their access to the tools of their criminal trade should be restricted, but that doesn't usually require solitary confinement.
- benologist 13y ago
  I would argue solitary is the only rationale option for non-violent crime like this - anything less requires the person to respect limitations on communication they can circumvent if they want.
  - mjn 13y ago
    There are sometimes legitimate concerns, but I think they tend to be overblown in the case of computer crime. Along the lines of the insane worries that Kevin Mitnick couldn't be granted access to a phone because he might hack teh USA by whistling into the phone, I think there is often a weird witchcraft-style reaction to computer crime, where the defendant is seen as some kind of nearly omnipotent wizard.
  - xerophtye 13y ago
    ummm.... I thought violent criminals are kept in solitary confinement because they are dangerous to their fellow inmates. A hacker may be able to cause more harm to more people IF he is outside and has a computer. He can't exactly destroy the lives of other inmates while he is in prison...
- dsrguru 13y ago
  First of all, let's be clear that risk of fraud to an individual is often as harmful, if not more harmful, than risk of violence to an individual. Fraud that takes out a person's entire life savings, even if the victim doesn't commit suicide, typically does more lasting damage than, say, the average case of assault and battery. And that's not just true with identity theft. Stealing money alone can cause people to commit suicide as in Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme. So then the question becomes which type of criminal is more likely to commit more crimes if not in solitary confinement. Obviously it depends on the specific kind of criminal but in general, I'd say perpetrators of fraud if they have Internet access and violent criminals if they don't have Internet access.
  - downer89 13y ago
    Fraud that takes out a person's entire life savings, even if the victim doesn't commit suicide, typically does more lasting damage than, say, the average case of assault and battery. I disagree with you in every possible way, and I think you've just decided, off the top of your head, to make that up because you think it sounds good. You might be able to google some statistics, but I'm not drinking your kool-aid. Assault resulting in serious injury is categorically worse than fraud or identity theft, and far more common.
    - dsrguru 13y ago
      > I disagree with you in every possible way, and I think you've just decided, off the top of your head, to make that up because you think it sounds good. That tone was completely uncalled for, and assuming you were the one who downvoted me, downvoting me for disagreeing was equally uncalled for. This isn't reddit. > You might be able to google some statistics, but I'm not drinking your kool-aid. If you're going on gut feel rather than providing any statistics to the contrary, don't criticize me for going on gut feel. > Assault resulting in serious injury is categorically worse than fraud or identity theft I agree that assault resulting in long-term or permanent injury is generally worse than monetary fraud and perhaps partial identity theft (using one's information to commit an isolated instance of fraud). However, it's certainly not "categorically worse" than all forms of fraud or identity theft. Even breaking someone's legs (one of the worst forms of [non-sexual] assault) generally ruins a person's life less than full identity theft and, by definition, less than stealing so much from someone that they are driven to suicide. > and far more common If you mean some class of assault is more common than some class of fraud or identity theft, I don't know if you're right or wrong, but that has no bearing on the rate at which a particular criminal will commit repeat offenses. If on the other hand you meant that assault in which there's serious injury is the most common kind of assault, we'd have to consult Google but that seems highly improbable.

Svip 13y ago

Actually, solitary confinement is pretty standard in Denmark. And for that reason, the UN has even raised concerns about it. Not that anything has happened in this regard.

cylinder 13y ago
Very odd that supposedly advanced Denmark would impose barbaric solitary confinement. How we as a species still get away with this tactic is beyond me.
- tedunangst 13y ago
  Definitions of advanced and barbaric vary wildly.
  - mjn 13y ago
    In particular, what Denmark considers really barbaric are long sentences: 10, 20, 30+ years are quite unusual. Most sentences are less than 2 years, with a handful of severe sentences in the high single-digit range.
- Amygaz 13y ago
  The list of things that are beyond me, and probably many member on this board can be quite long. A radical example is: who decided that planet Earth belonged to a bunch of corrupted politicians and executives and not the rest of us, preventing people to roam freely, and to freely decide where they can live, work, raise their family...
  - macspoofing 13y ago
    200,000 years of history
  - sounds 13y ago
    To argue against the line "it's only natural that the corrupt seize power" look no further than the various cases where decency and enlightenment prevailed. Never give in — never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.