4 ms·

No, it hasn't put an end to debate at all. This is an ugly workaround and still requires Cisco to build binaries on your behalf. It's quite a stretch of "open"

by pslam 13y ago

No, it hasn't put an end to debate at all. This is an ugly workaround and still requires Cisco to build binaries on your behalf. It's quite a stretch of "open" and certainly not "free" (not that it claims to be). There is still ongoing work to create a better, free standard.

mlinksva 13y ago
VP8 exists, and is free VP9 exists, is better and free (in Chrome, will be in Firefox release in a few months) There is still ongoing work to create a better, encumbered codec, h.265 There is going work to create a much better, free codec, Dalaa Now is a good time to finally break free of encumbered video codecs. If not now, when. :)
- Hannan 13y ago
  Just for anyone else who hadn't heard of it yet and searches for it, it's apparently spelled "Daala".
- josephlord 13y ago
  Now is a great time for the next generation if VP9 really is patent free or fully licensed OR Daala is ready to take on H.265 AND that Free solution matches or beats H.265 AND that Free solution can get itself in hardware (particularly mobile) solutions in the same timeframe as H.265. The other possibility for the Free next generation solution is if H.265 licensing is unreasonable (as H.263 was and H.264 wasn't). For the current codec generation the ship has sailed, the deployed base of H.264 devices means the battle is over. [Edit: replaced 'open' with 'Free']
  - natevancouver 13y ago
    * Due to the nature of patents, “patent-free” tech does not exist. * At scale H.264 is crazy cheap. It costs $6.5 million for YouTube to serve 72 billion hours of video. Still, it is infinitely more expensive than free.
    - josephlord 13y ago
      20 year old tech can avoid patent problems but I share you scepticism about the status of VP8/9. Agree H.264 is cheap but I think you underestimate how cheap. Internet delivered video that is not subscription or pay per view is free! http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/avc/Documents/avcweb.pdf http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/avc/Documents/avcweb.pdf I'm actually sceptical that VP9 will be good enough and patent safe enough to dislodge H.265. From what I've read about Daala I suspect it will too late to the battle. I suspect hardware support for H.265 is already well under way that a convincing improvement would be necessary to stop H.265 dominating the next decade. The advocates for Free codecs need to forget about H.264 and focus on a compelling argument to beat H.265 and get their chosen answer into hardware developments NOW. In 12 months it will be too late if it isn't already. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the development of these and other codecs, they are a factor in keeping the license prices reasonable.
      - mlinksva 13y ago
        From what I understand, Daala is aimed at the generation after VP9/H.265, eg https://lwn.net/Articles/571978/ https://lwn.net/Articles/571978/ But I suspect you're right about VP9/H.265 decisions being made now, and royalty free alternatives keeping prices down even when the alternatives don't win a lot of market share (could say the same about the never-winning "linux desktop" -- it gets negligible seats, but may have shifted $$$ from Microsoft profit to consumers over the years).
        josephlord 13y ago
        That might be the plan for Daala but it really needs to be MUCH better to make another generational change worthwhile. I don't think VP9 can win the current fight to be honest. I doubt it is patent free, or good enough. I also wonder if Google can cooperate in the way required to build support for it outside of its Android family.
        nitrogen 13y ago
        VP9 is licensed for all MPEG-LA patents, so it has that going for it.
- gcb1 13y ago
  vp8 is as free as this. just replace mpegla with google.
- drill_sarge 13y ago
  Interesting enough Youtube has removed the HD WebM formats and only offers 360p for WebM and higher quality is mp4 only. Strange decision baring in mind that Google is behind pushing WebM.

by pslam 13y ago

mlinksva 13y ago

VP8 exists, and is free VP9 exists, is better and free (in Chrome, will be in Firefox release in a few months) There is still ongoing work to create a better, encumbered codec, h.265 There is going work to create a much better, free codec, Dalaa Now is a good time to finally break free of encumbered video codecs. If not now, when. :)

Hannan 13y ago
Just for anyone else who hadn't heard of it yet and searches for it, it's apparently spelled "Daala".
josephlord 13y ago
Now is a great time for the next generation if VP9 really is patent free or fully licensed OR Daala is ready to take on H.265 AND that Free solution matches or beats H.265 AND that Free solution can get itself in hardware (particularly mobile) solutions in the same timeframe as H.265. The other possibility for the Free next generation solution is if H.265 licensing is unreasonable (as H.263 was and H.264 wasn't). For the current codec generation the ship has sailed, the deployed base of H.264 devices means the battle is over. [Edit: replaced 'open' with 'Free']
- natevancouver 13y ago
  * Due to the nature of patents, “patent-free” tech does not exist. * At scale H.264 is crazy cheap. It costs $6.5 million for YouTube to serve 72 billion hours of video. Still, it is infinitely more expensive than free.
  - josephlord 13y ago
    20 year old tech can avoid patent problems but I share you scepticism about the status of VP8/9. Agree H.264 is cheap but I think you underestimate how cheap. Internet delivered video that is not subscription or pay per view is free! http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/avc/Documents/avcweb.pdf http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/avc/Documents/avcweb.pdf I'm actually sceptical that VP9 will be good enough and patent safe enough to dislodge H.265. From what I've read about Daala I suspect it will too late to the battle. I suspect hardware support for H.265 is already well under way that a convincing improvement would be necessary to stop H.265 dominating the next decade. The advocates for Free codecs need to forget about H.264 and focus on a compelling argument to beat H.265 and get their chosen answer into hardware developments NOW. In 12 months it will be too late if it isn't already. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the development of these and other codecs, they are a factor in keeping the license prices reasonable.
    - mlinksva 13y ago
      From what I understand, Daala is aimed at the generation after VP9/H.265, eg https://lwn.net/Articles/571978/ https://lwn.net/Articles/571978/ But I suspect you're right about VP9/H.265 decisions being made now, and royalty free alternatives keeping prices down even when the alternatives don't win a lot of market share (could say the same about the never-winning "linux desktop" -- it gets negligible seats, but may have shifted $$$ from Microsoft profit to consumers over the years).
      - josephlord 13y ago
        That might be the plan for Daala but it really needs to be MUCH better to make another generational change worthwhile. I don't think VP9 can win the current fight to be honest. I doubt it is patent free, or good enough. I also wonder if Google can cooperate in the way required to build support for it outside of its Android family.
        nitrogen 13y ago
        VP9 is licensed for all MPEG-LA patents, so it has that going for it.
gcb1 13y ago
vp8 is as free as this. just replace mpegla with google.
drill_sarge 13y ago
Interesting enough Youtube has removed the HD WebM formats and only offers 360p for WebM and higher quality is mp4 only. Strange decision baring in mind that Google is behind pushing WebM.