6 ms·

Your analogy fails: There's just not a 100:1 difference in effort to lay a brick wall. Maybe 3:1. But you still have to pick up each brick, no matter how tale

Your analogy fails: There's just not a 100:1 difference in effort to lay a brick wall. Maybe 3:1. But you still have to pick up each brick, no matter how talented you are. This is why bricklaying (and other physical processes) are bad analogies to computer programs.

Swizec 13y ago
Not really. There are these things: http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2010/11/new-127.jpg http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/201... Bricklaying machines where bricks go into a bucket and out the other end comes a horizontal wall. You could prefab this on the floor and then just put it up ... maybe, I don't know, I'm not a bricklayer.
- Sharlin 13y ago
  The image is a bit misleading. That is not an automated bricklayer, it's just a bit more ergonomic way for human workers to lay bricks.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - zoips 13y ago
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2276585/Follow-self-road-Incredible-machine-lays-carpet-bricks-removing-breaking-hard-work.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2276585/Follow-self-... Seems automated from the article. Edit: As mentioned below, reading is fundamental, I should learn to do it sometime.
    - ygra 13y ago
      Well, from the same article: »All a worker as (sic) to do is load the bricks into the machine in the desired pattern and gravity does the hard work« So it is a more ergonomic way of laying bricks; you're doing it upright, not crouched down. But you still have to lay them. You can't just throw a pile of bricks into it and get a road out without workers doing anything.
eterm 13y ago
There are many, many "bricklayers" out there who actually end up not laying the wall at all. They work hard for weeks perhaps months but eventually give up, sometimes leaving a half-finished wall that is so shoddy it needs tearing down by a more experienced professional before they can put up a better wall. They may well have been paid in part already for work and you're left with nothing to show for it. In many cases they'll leave and find a new "victim" to work for.
- yongjik 13y ago
  Are we still talking about real bricklayers? Because I find that rather hard to believe.
  - adt2bt 13y ago
    Yes, there are quite a few construction contractors who require they be paid an amount before they begin work. They then either don't even show up, do an awful, intentionally half-finished job, or simply quit to never be heard from again. While anecdotal evidence, my father has been doing construction contracting for the last 17 years and runs into these types of people regularly. He often comes in and finishes the jobs that these people ran from. Usually, he just tears it apart and re-starts.
    - entendre 13y ago
      There are (in the software world) far more instances of bosses who hire you to build a brick wall without the money to do so and put you on net 60 hoping they'll somehow come up with the money by the end. The more likely scenario in software is you get to day 45 with 90% of the wall built and the client asks you to hand over your key to the job site and stops taking your calls. There's where most of the "half built walls" in my industry come.
    - enjo 13y ago
      I own a company that works with a number of contractors. I can confirm: this is a huge deal. The fly-by-night subcontractor is a thing. In construction there is nothing more valuable than a network of dependable skilled tradesman. General contractors will pay for good help. I always thought "if this software thing doesn't work out, I'm gonna go be an electrician". I've now met lots of them making way more money than I am (and I'm well paid). Most of them basically have two or three customers, all of which are GC's. They've shown that they are: - responsible (show up on time and in the right place) - dependable (they get the work done on time and on budget) - knowledgeable (they keep up to date with changes to code) - respectful (they keep the job-site clean and work well with other subs) In short, they're professionals in every sense of the word. In exchange they charge 3x what other tradesman charge. People are happy to pay it.
jenrzzz 13y ago
That's why you need to find a bricklayer with a O(1) bricklaying technique.
- rhizome 13y ago
  I think you actually get at the crux of the issue, inapt comparison to programming though bricklaying is. If the analogy is going to carry, we should be able to describe an interview process that will distinguish the 2hr vs. 2wk bricklayer. Yet even in programming, this reverse-engineering of interview techniques doesn't exist.
  - finnw 13y ago
    That's because being convincing at interview is much easier to learn than writing good code or laying bricks fast. So for a bad coder (or bad bricklayer) it makes sense to train for interviews instead of training for the actual job. One thing that is hard to work around is where the interviewee must demonstrate their skill first hand (e.g. implement FizzBuzz followed by strcpy and a binary search.) Many common interview questions are too indirect (Show me a certificate; Answer this trivia question about a Java API from 1997) or misguided attempts at personality tests (How many sewing machines are there in West Virginia) all of which one can prepare for without having the actual ability to do the job. These kinds of questions can still work, as long as they have not yet made it into "How to succeed at interviews" type books. Or when the applicants you want to filter out cannot resist outing themselves even with training (e.g. "Tell me about a time when you have been wrong / publicly changed your opinion" will probably always be a useful filter.)
- UK-AL 13y ago
  Deploy a single large brick? ;)
  - twic 13y ago
    How are people still talking about manually deploying bricks? Amazon Wall Services has solved this problem!

Swizec 13y ago

Not really. There are these things: http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2010/11/new-127.jpg http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/201... Bricklaying machines where bricks go into a bucket and out the other end comes a horizontal wall. You could prefab this on the floor and then just put it up ... maybe, I don't know, I'm not a bricklayer.

Sharlin 13y ago
The image is a bit misleading. That is not an automated bricklayer, it's just a bit more ergonomic way for human workers to lay bricks.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- zoips 13y ago
  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2276585/Follow-self-road-Incredible-machine-lays-carpet-bricks-removing-breaking-hard-work.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2276585/Follow-self-... Seems automated from the article. Edit: As mentioned below, reading is fundamental, I should learn to do it sometime.
  - ygra 13y ago
    Well, from the same article: »All a worker as (sic) to do is load the bricks into the machine in the desired pattern and gravity does the hard work« So it is a more ergonomic way of laying bricks; you're doing it upright, not crouched down. But you still have to lay them. You can't just throw a pile of bricks into it and get a road out without workers doing anything.

eterm 13y ago

There are many, many "bricklayers" out there who actually end up not laying the wall at all. They work hard for weeks perhaps months but eventually give up, sometimes leaving a half-finished wall that is so shoddy it needs tearing down by a more experienced professional before they can put up a better wall. They may well have been paid in part already for work and you're left with nothing to show for it. In many cases they'll leave and find a new "victim" to work for.

yongjik 13y ago
Are we still talking about real bricklayers? Because I find that rather hard to believe.
- adt2bt 13y ago
  Yes, there are quite a few construction contractors who require they be paid an amount before they begin work. They then either don't even show up, do an awful, intentionally half-finished job, or simply quit to never be heard from again. While anecdotal evidence, my father has been doing construction contracting for the last 17 years and runs into these types of people regularly. He often comes in and finishes the jobs that these people ran from. Usually, he just tears it apart and re-starts.
  - entendre 13y ago
    There are (in the software world) far more instances of bosses who hire you to build a brick wall without the money to do so and put you on net 60 hoping they'll somehow come up with the money by the end. The more likely scenario in software is you get to day 45 with 90% of the wall built and the client asks you to hand over your key to the job site and stops taking your calls. There's where most of the "half built walls" in my industry come.
  - enjo 13y ago
    I own a company that works with a number of contractors. I can confirm: this is a huge deal. The fly-by-night subcontractor is a thing. In construction there is nothing more valuable than a network of dependable skilled tradesman. General contractors will pay for good help. I always thought "if this software thing doesn't work out, I'm gonna go be an electrician". I've now met lots of them making way more money than I am (and I'm well paid). Most of them basically have two or three customers, all of which are GC's. They've shown that they are: - responsible (show up on time and in the right place) - dependable (they get the work done on time and on budget) - knowledgeable (they keep up to date with changes to code) - respectful (they keep the job-site clean and work well with other subs) In short, they're professionals in every sense of the word. In exchange they charge 3x what other tradesman charge. People are happy to pay it.

jenrzzz 13y ago

That's why you need to find a bricklayer with a O(1) bricklaying technique.

rhizome 13y ago
I think you actually get at the crux of the issue, inapt comparison to programming though bricklaying is. If the analogy is going to carry, we should be able to describe an interview process that will distinguish the 2hr vs. 2wk bricklayer. Yet even in programming, this reverse-engineering of interview techniques doesn't exist.
- finnw 13y ago
  That's because being convincing at interview is much easier to learn than writing good code or laying bricks fast. So for a bad coder (or bad bricklayer) it makes sense to train for interviews instead of training for the actual job. One thing that is hard to work around is where the interviewee must demonstrate their skill first hand (e.g. implement FizzBuzz followed by strcpy and a binary search.) Many common interview questions are too indirect (Show me a certificate; Answer this trivia question about a Java API from 1997) or misguided attempts at personality tests (How many sewing machines are there in West Virginia) all of which one can prepare for without having the actual ability to do the job. These kinds of questions can still work, as long as they have not yet made it into "How to succeed at interviews" type books. Or when the applicants you want to filter out cannot resist outing themselves even with training (e.g. "Tell me about a time when you have been wrong / publicly changed your opinion" will probably always be a useful filter.)
UK-AL 13y ago
Deploy a single large brick? ;)
- twic 13y ago
  How are people still talking about manually deploying bricks? Amazon Wall Services has solved this problem!