5 ms·
Ну и пусть пиздуют со своим китайским барахлом ломающимся. Seriously: you want to have a business in the country, a profitable and fast-growing one, yet you ha
by ilyak 17y ago
Ну и пусть пиздуют со своим китайским барахлом ломающимся.
Seriously: you want to have a business in the country, a profitable and fast-growing one, yet you have complaints about the process. I guess, either shove it or leave.
In Moscow, there was an accident when an aquapark full of people collapsed due to bad engineering and construction, too. So, maybe those delays aren't just corruption?
Also: In South Korea, there's a history of mall collapsing under its weight due to poor engineering and exploitation;
The bottom line is: If it would be corruption alone, they'd bribe and move on; they're huge. So, it's not just corruption.
And as of stopping investments, maybe they're just out of money in their Sweden?
"The retailer has become such an icon of Russia's boom that today's yuppies are called "the Ikea Generation.""
This is crap, never heard anything remotely like that.
Perhaps stop making things up?
- deleted 17y ago[deleted]
- deleted 17y ago[deleted]
- ilyak 17y agoAnd as of their "investments". Those "investments" just build huge malls that sap away money and life from small busines and local furniture making factories, instead introducing a wave of cheap Chinese crap. Why care? Such investments aren't life-savers for anything.
- rjurney 17y agoExcept - traditional Russian retailers are terrible compared to Ikea. They do represent a real improvement.
- ilyak 17y agoHowever, traditional Russian furniture is fine compared to Ikea's chinese crap. Crap's cheaper, tho. I know that on the basis of having some. As for retailers: if it wouldn't be an IKEA mall, it would be some other kind of mall, it's not like there would be much difference.
- presto10 17y agoSo when you can't win the actual argument, you will slander Ikea's products? Maybe I'm feeding the trolls here.
- ilyak 17y agoHow would IKEA ever interest us outside of the context of its products? "In other news, IKEA, after operating in Russia for 9 years, suddently discovers that there's a massive corruption there". IKEA uses press to bash government for bad process; I use HN to bash IKEA for bad wares; If I troll, don't they?
- presto10 17y agoIkea would interest us as a company trying to do business without paying bribes in Russia. No matter what the quality of its products, it does not deserve to be extorted by corrupt authorities. So don't mix up the quality of its products with the corruption issue.
- ilyak 17y agoIf you can have a huge successful business without paying any bribes, that sounds like a pretty managed level of corruption.
- presto10 17y agoSounds like you think the world is Russia. If you ever get a chance, try exploring the corporate culture in another country, say, Sweden. You will be amazed at how many things you assumed to be universal actually are characteristics of Russian corporate and government culture. This includes rampant corruption in large corporations and government. What bothers me with the attitude of neo-patriotic Russians under Putin (which you seem to represent well) is that it considers the logic of "everyone cheats, therefore we can too, even so bad that it goes off the charts" valid.
- 17y ago
- Dauntless 17y agoNot only that, but it creates jobs, helps the economy by supporting the major logging industry in Russia (a sustainable industry if done right) and improves the lifestyles of normal Russians, among other...
- ilyak 17y agoIt does. But I don't think they deserve some special rights because of that or because of their size; that is, a right to use corruption (when trying to do something questionable) and blame corruption (when it gets in their way) at one time. As for improving the lifestyles, you'll soon realise that cheap chinese wares don't improve the lifestyles that much. Cheap, but ugly and non-durable.
- presto10 17y agoAre you claiming that Ikea is using corruption (bribing someone) in Russia? On what grounds?
- rjurney 17y agoI don't believe you can operate a large business in Russia and not pay bribes. To think otherwise is naive. Although my experience is 5 years old, I don't think things have changed so much that Ikea isn't paying bribes.
- ilyak 17y agoBecause every big corporation uses corruption unless proven otherwise. Sorry. Especially global corporations are known for doing it in less economically developed countries to own them as they wish. Example is South America: there were some wars, even, growing out of conflict between two American oil corporations.
- presto10 17y agoYou as a Russian should know better than to generalize about others, in the same way Russians are being unfavorably generalized elsewhere. It just makes you look as bad as them.
- presto10 17y agoWhy does one have to accept the practise of corruption, to have a profitable and fast-growing business, as you seem to suggest? With your reasoning, we could put forward that maybe the Moscow accident was caused by corruption: the builders paid off the inspectors to save on building costs. The bottom line is: Ikea and Ingvar Kamprad has stated several times that they will not accept the Russian business practise of corruption. This is one of the reasons why some of Ikea's new locations have stood unopened for years, while waiting for permits from local governments (read: while refusing to pay bribes). Может тебе сам перестать придумывать вещи, и посмотреть в зеркало?
- ilyak 17y agoWell, you can either accept "practice of corruption" or circumnavigate around in some way, or not have a business. About the Moscow accident; I'm sure it was, partly. But I don't see how is this fact going to help if their mall in Samara has safety problems, indeed. If it doesn't, as I've told, they have their three choices. In short: I DO think there's a problem with corruption in Russia; I just DON'T see a problem with IKEA packing its bags and leaving.
- berntb 17y agoYou might like IKEA, or not. There is an easy argument to make that they are a net destroyer of taste and destroy culture. I am not certain, personally. But as a business, IKEA is as serious as a heart attack and is a competitor that seems unbeatable; an inspiration for all. IKEA builds and manage an incredible amount of stores everywhere -- without any serious security problem. I've never read any article that IKEA complain about bribes in other countries. Be grateful that the company risks billions of dollars by becoming unpopular among violent criminals like Russian politicians. It is bettering your country; economists claims that corruption destroys a country. You don't help your suffering country by defending your politician-thieves, which even makes the politicians of my home country seem mild. (Sorry for wasting space by beating a dead horse.)
- ilyak 17y ago
- ilyak 17y agoIt's interesting being downmodded for being there and having a clue. I'd be to Samara in three weeks, would YOU?
- presto10 17y agoBecause you so obviously are more interested in spreading libel and doubt about those who put forward critique of Russian corruption, than to actually analyze the subject matter in a civilized manner. If you really care about Russia, start acting better than those who libel Russia. That means, don't libel back.
- ilyak 17y agoWhat I'm interested in is telling some truth about what's really happening. I guess that's just not interesting enough. Truth is overrated.
- dchest 17y agoYour "truth" is based on what, you being Russian? "I will be in Samara" in your only argument. You didn't provide any data on furniture sales, no references to the "fact" that IKEA put local stores/factories out of business. Well, I'm Russian too, and your comments are totally wrong. I can say my arguments after I hear yours. Finally, cursing on HN (even in Russian) doesn't make you sound good.
- ilyak 17y agoWell, did the article provide any data on how much are they expected to bribe, in $, and how good their mall building is? No, instead we've seen some bashing. It's okay to bash, it's okay for me to troll. Face with it: IKEA drains money from the country (is that called investments) and also their offerings are crap. Maybe it's just my experience; Тёмочка praises them. However, my experience is that you should only go there for tasty фрикадельки.
- 17y ago
- cousin_it 17y agoDownmodded for profanity. I'm another Russian here, and would rather the site stayed civil. Back on topic, I'm inclined to take the article on face value even though it doesn't provide much evidence, because the situation as described doesn't sound at all unusual. Whether IKEA is a good or bad company is utterly irrelevant to the discussion of bribery.