15 ms·

Backpacker stripped of tech gear at Auckland Airport

526 points by _mgr 13y ago

siculars 13y ago
Because children. Because terror. Because politics. I'm glad I've already been to NZ.
- vacri 13y ago
  I'd take my chances with the abuses of NZ customs officials than just about anywhere else in the world. One story does not a broken system make. This is the same country that told the US to fuck off with their nuclear-powered ships and when levered through treaties to send personnel to warzones, sends medical staff rather than troops. It's not some backwards little-Stalin state.
  - selimthegrim 13y ago
    I suppose if I'm not an NZ national (US citizen) they would only pause for 5 seconds (as opposed to none) before similarly making away with my gear? Or would they be more inclined to do that to an American as a more kingly than the king type deal? (I was planning on going there for Easter)
    - utunga 13y ago
      This guy was unfortunate in tripping some sort of alarm for them. I've travel NZ<->US approx twice a year for going on 15 years now and have never so much as been stopped. I always ask for the frisk and grab rather than the microwave scanners (I'm thinking about the TSA folks who have to work there) and have been to many 'hacker' conventions while in the US and never triggered anything. I guess I fit a profile as a 'known'... rather than unknown. Maybe someone the guy spoke to at this conference is someone they genuinely want to know everything about. This doesn't make it OK but it's quite likely some specific thing that set it off for them All of which to say you'll probably be fine and I don't imagine being a US vs NZ national will make any difference as to whether you get the stazi treatment or the wave through. Also FWIW I'm usually a more worried about missing my flights due to unnecessary searches on the TSA side of things (combining a special breed of stupid with a dangerous type of wilful paranoia) than on the NZ side (more of your basic 'just following orders guvn'r' type of stupidity)
    - tikwidd 13y ago
      Just be careful about biological material (NZ has very strict airport biosecurity) and you'll be fine. I'm a New Zealander and this is the first time I've heard of something like this happening at the border.
      - lostlogin 13y ago
        Sorry, accidentally down voted you. Yes they are very fussy, shoes need to be clean, no plant material etc.
        chad_oliver 13y ago
        I cancelled out your downvote, so your guilty conscience can rest easy. :-) I remember when we visited the Philippines, a friend gave us about 20 jars of a local delicacy to take back home to New Zealand. Which was very kind, except New Zealand's biosecurity laws meant that we had to throw most of them away at the border. (We could keep the few that were sealed properly.)
      - duncan_bayne 13y ago
        Yeah, I remember seeing a comedy skit about a guy carrying cocaine into New Zealand, freaking out when a sniffer dog singled out his baggage ... and then having to pay a fine for the apple core he left inside it ;)
        nwp90 13y ago
        First time I came here, I was so out of it (through being tired) by the time I got to Auckland that when the dog came up and started wagging at my bag I found myself bending down to pet it before thinking "What's this dog doing in an airport?..." Response "Er, that's a drug dog mate, any idea why he's so interested in your bag?" Can't remember exactly what I said then; I guess having had a dopehead flatmate a short while previously probably had something to do with it, and I think I mentioned that.
  - pessimizer 13y ago
    >It's not some backwards little-Stalin state. What do "backwards little-Stalin state[s]" have to do with it? Is it just habit to think of the ex-Eastern Bloc when you think of totalitarian surveillance, or do you think of the US and the UK as backwards little-Stalin states?
rangibaby 13y ago
Kiwistan strikes again. He should be grateful they didn't send a team of armed police to raid his house. /edit: Historically, white New Zealanders thought of New Zealand as "Better Britain". This basically meant doing anything [1] and everything [2] to please the "Mother Country". Now that the USA is the dominant superpower, this means things like raiding Kim Dotcom's mansion or providing land for a spy base. [3] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign [2] http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/the-new-zealanders/page-8 http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/the-new-zealanders/page-8 [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waihopai_Station http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waihopai_Station
- lostlogin 13y ago
  Somewhat related - it appears Dotcom Is still very much under surveillance. The but about his cellular cover improving is fascinating, but if true, a fairly big tell. http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11170965 http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=...
  - panacea 13y ago
    "The but about his cellular..." Excellent typo! You type in a kiwi accent ;]
deleted 13y ago
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aegiso 13y ago
When an organized group of people uses force to take your belongings, leveraging tactics of fear for political ends, isn't that firmly within the definition of terrorism? I don't know the facts here so I'm not implying anything in this specific case, but I like to remember that the terminology we use drastically shapes our thinking.
- baddox 13y ago
  No, because government. The problem of political authority: http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/1.htm http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/1.htm
- ekianjo 13y ago
  No, because here, it's the good guys doing it (wink).
- temuze 13y ago
  No, taking belongings has nothing to do with terrorism. Terrorism is about using terror as coercion and presumably, they're searching his stuff because they want to find something, not because they want the attention.
  - lawnchair_larry 13y ago
    Terrorism is about using terror as coercion I'm not seeing where that contradicts his experience.
    - ihsw 13y ago
      Terrorism is politically motivated, there is no evidence of that.
      - mischanix 13y ago
        Yeah, I don't see at all how security theater is politically motivated, you're right.
deleted 13y ago
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damirkotoric 13y ago
Are things getting worse every day?
- X4 13y ago
  Every month, but we're getting close to every other week. That's not entirely because of September 11th, but because politics thinks that they can serve Government and Corporate requirements better when they rip our data, privacy and rights.
coldcode 13y ago
Apparently the New Zealand government is a bitch of the NSA.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  After Kim Dotcom's house's FBI intrusion, it was already pretty clear.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    It goes back considerably further - even Clark was their patsy when it came down to it. But the very visible spy base next to a state highway has never been perceived as anything other than a surrender to US policy. A break with the US came close after the nuclear free thing, but relations recovered.
- prawn 13y ago
  I think at some level of consideration, it's worth thinking of the US, UK, Canada, Australia and NZ as one entity. The public of each might see the different flags, Olympic medal counts, anthems and cultural variations but when the shit hits the fan (and now anything hitting anything) it's effectively one thing. I've mentioned before on here that I think of it as Oceania from 1984. If a company has influence in the U*, you can bet they will get what they want down here too.
  - X4 13y ago
    Add Germany. Our Government is pro NSA and supports them as good as they can. They are dishonest self-servicing hypocrites.
    - dasil003 13y ago
      Really? A lot of the official criticism in the NSA scandal seems to have come out of Germany. I'm sure German government has their fare share of hypocrites as does any government, but I always thought of them as one of the better ones when it came to privacy issues.
3327 13y ago
"The object of terrorism is terrorism. The object of oppression is oppression. The object of torture is torture. The object of murder is murder. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?"
benjamincburns 13y ago
In the first week of January I'm leaving a Software Engineering gig for a US defense contractor to move to New Zealand. Due to the expense of shipping, my wife and I are only bringing what we can carry, and we've taken special care to fit as much of our lives as possible into our electronic devices. Search/seizure of these devices would be horrible and violating on so many levels. This news is absolutely terrifying to me. Edit: I wrote this as a quick knee-jerk without much thought, and now that I read it again I see the sad irony. This is being done to prevent terror? Someone needs to do a risk/reward analysis here... Edit 2: I appreciate everyone offering up solutions here, but really the only solution would be either to not go, or to not carry any devices at all. Encryption can't prevent me from being detained and my property from being confiscated. Given that the issue here is a violation of personal space rather than one of having something to hide, encryption will only increase the impact which such an event would have on my wife and me. If such an event were to occur and I was using strong encryption to protect my data, I'd be asked for any encryption keys, detained for much longer, and if I refused to cooperate in any way I'd have my things permanently confiscated and face refusal of entry. If I find myself in this situation, I'll be looking to minimize impact. I'll cooperate while trying as best as I can not to compromise my values, and then raise hell after the fact.
- erjjones 13y ago
  Ship your stuff before you go
  - benjamincburns 13y ago
    Because customs doesn't search shipments? No. If my stuff is searched/seized, I'd rather be aware of it happening.
    - utunga 13y ago
      Dude on a practical level this might be your best bet.
  - patrickdavey 13y ago
alexanderx 13y ago
Yeah maybe it is his last name.
kysol 13y ago
Time to switch login prompt to "Logging in with username and password" and have a dummy account that can delete files upon login. Provide the fairly clueless customs official with the loaded login credentials and damage done before they realise. Not that I have anything to hide... that being said they will probably just back door into my laptop next time I'm on and deactivate any form of tripwire. Curse you NSA, always streets ahead! (Note: If I wasn't on their radar, I am now... /sigh, it was a joke)
- nwh 13y ago
  Pulling that sort of stunt would probably get you in a lot of trouble.
  - fractallyte 13y ago
    You must stop thinking like a victim. It's your property, your responsibility, your freedom, your life. Assert yourself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
    - lukifer 13y ago
      The fear of death is the beginning of slavery.
    - rwallace 13y ago
      Okay, your heart is definitely in the right place, but if you're going to assert yourself over your electronic gear at the airport, do not for heaven's sake do it by playing cute half-clever tricks with hidden volumes or self-destructing software. Do it by politely but firmly refusing to hand over passwords; then the worst that's at all likely to happen to you is that they send you home without your gear.
- yaeger 13y ago
  Not necessary to do harm to your data. What you want is truecrypt with a shadow partition. See, forensics can tell if your laptop drive has an encrypted partition. But they can't tell how many. So, set up a dummy encrypted partition with user/pass and your normally used partition with user/pass. Depending on which user/pass you enter, truecrypt will decrypt the appropriate partition. The government can snoop all they want on your dummy partition. They will find nothing. When they ask why you encrypted it, you tell them because you always protect your things. You also lock your house when you leave etc. Of course you should have some things on your dummy partition that make it look like it is actually being used. If you just have a freshly installed OS with no sign of usage, that might get noticed.
tn13 13y ago
Terrorism: Terrorism is the systematic use of violence (terror) as a means of coercion for political purposes. If you define violence as intimidating (of), physical and mental torture then all governments top the list.
hkmurakami 13y ago
I remember fellow HN'er Steve Kablink saying on twitter that the only reason he hadn't done a FOIA request on himself is because... they probably have a list of people who have done a FOIA request on themselves (but that he'd be doing one soon out of principle). This kind of heavy handed, precedent setting, dissent-disincentivizing move is just sad to see happen (and perhaps sadder that I feel completely at its mercy and feel it affecting my actions concretely)
- reginaldjcooper 13y ago
  I haven't done one because a. what are they going to give me that I don't already suspect b. it's another data point for them to use in modeling. I don't turn on DNT in browsers either but I still run AdBlock and restrict third-party requests by a lot.
patio11 13y ago
Not quite so relevant to NZ but since I'm guessing many HNers are wondering what happens at the US border: https://www.eff.org/wp/defending-privacy-us-border-guide-travelers-carrying-digital-devices https://www.eff.org/wp/defending-privacy-us-border-guide-tra... I worry about this, since I travel frequently. Then again, I also worry about plane crashes. I think both are probably irrational, but having plans is what keeps the boogeyman away at night, so here's mine: 1) Remain polite and professional. 2) Decline to consent to any search. Comply with officers' demands that they tell me I'm legally required to comply with. Ask for that demand to be produced in writing. I'm willing to wait for a supervisor while they figure out how to do that, even if it means I miss my flight. I will get a receipt and/or report number and/or some other official written record of the incident if any seizure, including seizure of information, takes place. 3) Immediately after reaching my destination, file written grievances with any and all responsible agencies. They must have a spreadsheet tracking passenger complaints somewhere. Let's increment that while having someone commit, on paper, to a version of events of what happened and a legal rationale to why that was justified. This will only cost me a bit of time and money, and I have lots of time and money, but it has heavily asymmetric payoff in the event of a lawsuit or PR battle. But honestly? Mathematically, I'm much, much more at risk of getting mugged in Chicago on my way home from the airport than getting held up by Customs. I don't exactly live in fear of muggings but I take sensible precautions like e.g. backing up my data, making sure that I can turn a factory-new laptop into a working dev environment within a day, and carrying insurance. I'm pretty sure most of these still work even if I happen to lose a laptop to Customs rather than to a mugger.
- salient 13y ago
  Do you get searched by the TSA even when you're using the US airport as a hub, and not visiting US? Because I was already thinking of avoiding US as a hub if possible, but I wasn't sure if it was necessary or not.
  - rbritton 13y ago
    TSA searches only usually apply at the transition points from the outside into the terminals. Not all airports have the terminals all connected on the "secure" side though, so if changing airlines you may have to go through them. Customs is a different story, and I'm not sure how that works in this case.
sayanchowdhury 13y ago
A tight slap to our rights and privacy.
jrockway 13y ago
If you're visiting a country you're not a citizen of, bring your data in over the Internet. (Yes, there's the NSA thing, but it's still unclear what they can break. My guess is that they have not broken the crypto itself, only some buggy implementations.) If you're a citizen of the country, encrypt your data and let the courts figure out whether or not they can compel you to provide the key. (Or, they can publicly declare that they've broken AES, and get your data anyway. Either way, it's a win.) Also strongly agree with patio11 on getting everything in writing. This is now a criminal investigation. Make sure you have what you need to defend yourself in court.
- a3n 13y ago
  If the NSA wants your data they already have it, or can get it anytime they want from you or your service providers. It could change in the future, but at the moment we're all pwned. The problem for an essentially law abiding individual crossing a border is having access to their own data after crossing. Hardware fetishes notwithstanding, the hardware and its possible loss doesn't matter at all, it's the data held by the hardware or that the hardware gives access to. So: - If you can, stop buying expensive hardware. It doesn't matter. - Don't carry hardware across borders that you can't emotionally or economically walk away from forever. - The only copy of data that you depend on should not be on hardware that you cross a border with. Have it accessible on a server, the cloud, or with a colleague that can ship it to you electronically or physically after safely crossing borders. - Accept that you may have to buy cheap disposable hardware after exiting border checkpoints. - Worst case, plan for not having access to any hardware or data after exiting border checkpoints; you may not have your own hardware, you may not be able to buy any, and you may not have access to your data at all. Plan C, if you will.
kevcampb 13y ago
I'm not so convinced on the conspiracy theories here. I say that as I had a similar experience in Auckland airport a couple of years ago, when travelling to another destination in the country. The guy who interviewed me was actually very polite and friendly. They said I'd probably been flagged up as suspicious due to my itinerary. I'd travelled from China, for a 2 day visit to see a customer, with tickets booked via a US agent (Expedia). Suspect that living in China at the time had quite a bit to do with it. Got asked all kinds of questions, most of which I didn't know the answer to. Didn't get my laptop searched or asked for any passwords, but they did make a point of asking if I had any porn on my computer. I said no, and they asked no more. They way they asked though did make it sound like it was a bit of an issue to them. Took almost 2 hours in total. I actually didn't find it particularly stressful, mostly as I still made my next flight. I'd had far worse times travelling to the US, and getting some vindictive border agency guard who's out to get you by any means possible. Really, I loathe US immigration.
waynecochran 13y ago
Whenever I read these I always think there is more to the story -- usually I find out later that the "victim" was being a jerk (not that they should hassle jerks -- but that is human nature).
slater 13y ago
surely this...?
pranayairan 13y ago
this is sad
lastwayhome 13y ago
Lets all just remember that he is at this stage the first for this to happen to. I'm a kiwi and on a New Zealand watch list for other reasons and this has never happened to me. No need to get scared, thousands upon thousands of people fly through nz airports all the time and this never happens. I follow this sort of thing and its the first I've heard.
deleted 13y ago
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zobzu 13y ago
So its still news to people that customs agents are all powerful.. :) turns out that if you think police was bad, custom is 1000 worse. They can do literally anything and that's not just the USA. It's the same everywhere in Europe for example. Also, I would strongly advise giving out your password if you want to be on your way. Refusal to give access is generally a huge issue.
csense 13y ago
I don't really travel internationally, but I decided -- about ten years ago, when people first started talking about the way laptops are searched at borders -- that if I do feel the urge to travel internationally with my laptop, I'll dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda on all my gadgets before I cross any national border. Of course you want to have VNC / ssh set up ahead of time so you can actually do stuff...
elchief 13y ago
As Bruce Schneier suggests, when crossing a border, encrypt your drives and change your password to something so long and convoluted you cannot possibly remember it. Give you password to a trusted friend (preferably your lawyer) with instructions not to give you the password until you get home or to your destination.
jmspring 13y ago
Dear HN -- In the US, please start making a distinction between CPB and DHS. One governs entry into the county the other is responsible for security when boarding a plane. CPB -- http://www.cbp.gov http://www.cbp.gov DHS -- http://www.dhs.gov http://www.dhs.gov
Cthulhu_ 13y ago
I have bank code on my (encrypted) laptop (and the code itself is in an encrypted container), I'd like to see them demand I give up the passwords, then have the US involved in a big corporate espionage lawsuit vs one of the world's largest banks. Actually nvm, I don't, I wiped my hard drive before bringing it in for repairs.
motters 13y ago
I've tweeted and blogged against the surveillance state many times, so I guess I must also be on whatever list this guy is on.
binarymax 13y ago
Never declare anything, ever. And if they pull you out for a search anyway, play ignorant.
- samhoggnz 13y ago
  This is terrible advice, especially in the New Zealand context. Playing ignorant will get you into a lot more trouble than being honest, and will just fuel the fire more.
jaytheham 13y ago
As an NZ citizen who is outraged at this pathetic kowtowing to US interests, anyone have any good ideas about who or what I can direct pissed off emails to? it would be nice to at least feel i've tried to do something
grugq 13y ago
This is why professionals operate on "Naked In/Naked Out". Show up with nothing, acquire all your tooling in the country, execute your operational activities, dispose of the tooling, leave the country with nothing. Expensive, but safe. These sorts of harassment measures are only capable of catching amateurs making serious operational mistakes. They will not catch professionals or serious operatives. I can never understand how this passes for counter-terrorism when it is really just "counter-clumsy-terrorists", at best.
- seefriek 13y ago
  Agreed, mostly. We always maintained a pool of "disposable" kit (laptop, phones, etc) with a minimum of "stuff" loaded (OS, major productivity apps, some publicly available documents, etc). Go ahead and search or seize, no worries. Carrying it avoids the awkward "so you're here to do IT stuff, but you don't have a laptop or phone...hmmmmm".
abdulqabiz 13y ago
Sad. After a long flight one has to go through this. I have gone through my share. I forgot to declare an apple given by Singapore airline. I kept apple in my bag in rush while getting out of aircraft, and was so sleepy to realise I need to declare it. I was held there for sometime. I was fined USD 200. The most expensive fruit of my life. I didn't even get to keep it with me. Some of people on airport were like robots, they didn't have any reaction (on their faces) for my plea.
bonemachine 13y ago
However, a Customs official has since told him they were searching everything for objectionable material under the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act 1993. Yeah right.
BrownBuffalo 13y ago
My question - does the local border patrol have the ability to break bitlock encryption on a laptop I bring there? I mean, who from HN travels w/o something like this done on your computer in the first place?!
- PeterisP 13y ago
  They apparently have the ability to ask you for the password and take your stuff or refuse entry if you don't cooperate. IMHO they shouldn't, but that's a different issue.
BrownBuffalo 13y ago
Lots to consider as well - travel to the US can be rather dicey for foreign travelers, so here is what you _can_ do to become better prepared for travel here - http://www.cba.org/CBa/PracticeLink/tayp/laptopborder.aspx http://www.cba.org/CBa/PracticeLink/tayp/laptopborder.aspx
tynan 13y ago
I had an interaction like this in Canada. The options they give you are to give up your passwords, log in to your online banks to show them transactions, etc., or have everything confiscated. The reason they did it to me is because they thought I was a drug smuggler. They got that idea because I was going to China and didn't have a fixed itinerary, which they found to be incredibly suspicious. I'm not sure if the non-techie cop was playing good cop/bad cop or not, but he was yelling at me and accusing me of being a liar from the beginning. Because I knew I hadn't done anything wrong and wasn't lying, it was pretty comical, but it became really upsetting once they started threatening to seize everything if I didn't give up my passwords.
- dpatrick86 13y ago
  Sort of amusing that it's the lack of fixed schedule that really rattled him. Dude sounds like he could use a sabbatical himself.
rumbler 13y ago
I routinely carry microSD cards filled with 16GB of random numbers.

526 points by _mgr 13y ago

siculars 13y ago

Because children. Because terror. Because politics. I'm glad I've already been to NZ.

vacri 13y ago
I'd take my chances with the abuses of NZ customs officials than just about anywhere else in the world. One story does not a broken system make. This is the same country that told the US to fuck off with their nuclear-powered ships and when levered through treaties to send personnel to warzones, sends medical staff rather than troops. It's not some backwards little-Stalin state.
- selimthegrim 13y ago
  I suppose if I'm not an NZ national (US citizen) they would only pause for 5 seconds (as opposed to none) before similarly making away with my gear? Or would they be more inclined to do that to an American as a more kingly than the king type deal? (I was planning on going there for Easter)
  - utunga 13y ago
    This guy was unfortunate in tripping some sort of alarm for them. I've travel NZ<->US approx twice a year for going on 15 years now and have never so much as been stopped. I always ask for the frisk and grab rather than the microwave scanners (I'm thinking about the TSA folks who have to work there) and have been to many 'hacker' conventions while in the US and never triggered anything. I guess I fit a profile as a 'known'... rather than unknown. Maybe someone the guy spoke to at this conference is someone they genuinely want to know everything about. This doesn't make it OK but it's quite likely some specific thing that set it off for them All of which to say you'll probably be fine and I don't imagine being a US vs NZ national will make any difference as to whether you get the stazi treatment or the wave through. Also FWIW I'm usually a more worried about missing my flights due to unnecessary searches on the TSA side of things (combining a special breed of stupid with a dangerous type of wilful paranoia) than on the NZ side (more of your basic 'just following orders guvn'r' type of stupidity)
  - tikwidd 13y ago
    Just be careful about biological material (NZ has very strict airport biosecurity) and you'll be fine. I'm a New Zealander and this is the first time I've heard of something like this happening at the border.
    - lostlogin 13y ago
      Sorry, accidentally down voted you. Yes they are very fussy, shoes need to be clean, no plant material etc.
      - chad_oliver 13y ago
        I cancelled out your downvote, so your guilty conscience can rest easy. :-) I remember when we visited the Philippines, a friend gave us about 20 jars of a local delicacy to take back home to New Zealand. Which was very kind, except New Zealand's biosecurity laws meant that we had to throw most of them away at the border. (We could keep the few that were sealed properly.)
    - duncan_bayne 13y ago
      Yeah, I remember seeing a comedy skit about a guy carrying cocaine into New Zealand, freaking out when a sniffer dog singled out his baggage ... and then having to pay a fine for the apple core he left inside it ;)
      - nwp90 13y ago
        First time I came here, I was so out of it (through being tired) by the time I got to Auckland that when the dog came up and started wagging at my bag I found myself bending down to pet it before thinking "What's this dog doing in an airport?..." Response "Er, that's a drug dog mate, any idea why he's so interested in your bag?" Can't remember exactly what I said then; I guess having had a dopehead flatmate a short while previously probably had something to do with it, and I think I mentioned that.
- pessimizer 13y ago
  >It's not some backwards little-Stalin state. What do "backwards little-Stalin state[s]" have to do with it? Is it just habit to think of the ex-Eastern Bloc when you think of totalitarian surveillance, or do you think of the US and the UK as backwards little-Stalin states?

rangibaby 13y ago

Kiwistan strikes again. He should be grateful they didn't send a team of armed police to raid his house. /edit: Historically, white New Zealanders thought of New Zealand as "Better Britain". This basically meant doing anything [1] and everything [2] to please the "Mother Country". Now that the USA is the dominant superpower, this means things like raiding Kim Dotcom's mansion or providing land for a spy base. [3] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign [2] http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/the-new-zealanders/page-8 http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/the-new-zealanders/page-8 [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waihopai_Station http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waihopai_Station

lostlogin 13y ago
Somewhat related - it appears Dotcom Is still very much under surveillance. The but about his cellular cover improving is fascinating, but if true, a fairly big tell. http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11170965 http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=...
- panacea 13y ago
  "The but about his cellular..." Excellent typo! You type in a kiwi accent ;]

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

aegiso 13y ago

When an organized group of people uses force to take your belongings, leveraging tactics of fear for political ends, isn't that firmly within the definition of terrorism? I don't know the facts here so I'm not implying anything in this specific case, but I like to remember that the terminology we use drastically shapes our thinking.

baddox 13y ago
No, because government. The problem of political authority: http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/1.htm http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/1.htm
ekianjo 13y ago
No, because here, it's the good guys doing it (wink).
temuze 13y ago
No, taking belongings has nothing to do with terrorism. Terrorism is about using terror as coercion and presumably, they're searching his stuff because they want to find something, not because they want the attention.
- lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  Terrorism is about using terror as coercion I'm not seeing where that contradicts his experience.
  - ihsw 13y ago
    Terrorism is politically motivated, there is no evidence of that.
    - mischanix 13y ago
      Yeah, I don't see at all how security theater is politically motivated, you're right.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

damirkotoric 13y ago

Are things getting worse every day?

X4 13y ago
Every month, but we're getting close to every other week. That's not entirely because of September 11th, but because politics thinks that they can serve Government and Corporate requirements better when they rip our data, privacy and rights.

coldcode 13y ago

Apparently the New Zealand government is a bitch of the NSA.

ekianjo 13y ago
After Kim Dotcom's house's FBI intrusion, it was already pretty clear.
- lostlogin 13y ago
  It goes back considerably further - even Clark was their patsy when it came down to it. But the very visible spy base next to a state highway has never been perceived as anything other than a surrender to US policy. A break with the US came close after the nuclear free thing, but relations recovered.
prawn 13y ago
I think at some level of consideration, it's worth thinking of the US, UK, Canada, Australia and NZ as one entity. The public of each might see the different flags, Olympic medal counts, anthems and cultural variations but when the shit hits the fan (and now anything hitting anything) it's effectively one thing. I've mentioned before on here that I think of it as Oceania from 1984. If a company has influence in the U*, you can bet they will get what they want down here too.
- X4 13y ago
  Add Germany. Our Government is pro NSA and supports them as good as they can. They are dishonest self-servicing hypocrites.
  - dasil003 13y ago
    Really? A lot of the official criticism in the NSA scandal seems to have come out of Germany. I'm sure German government has their fare share of hypocrites as does any government, but I always thought of them as one of the better ones when it came to privacy issues.

3327 13y ago

"The object of terrorism is terrorism. The object of oppression is oppression. The object of torture is torture. The object of murder is murder. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?"

benjamincburns 13y ago

In the first week of January I'm leaving a Software Engineering gig for a US defense contractor to move to New Zealand. Due to the expense of shipping, my wife and I are only bringing what we can carry, and we've taken special care to fit as much of our lives as possible into our electronic devices. Search/seizure of these devices would be horrible and violating on so many levels. This news is absolutely terrifying to me. Edit: I wrote this as a quick knee-jerk without much thought, and now that I read it again I see the sad irony. This is being done to prevent terror? Someone needs to do a risk/reward analysis here... Edit 2: I appreciate everyone offering up solutions here, but really the only solution would be either to not go, or to not carry any devices at all. Encryption can't prevent me from being detained and my property from being confiscated. Given that the issue here is a violation of personal space rather than one of having something to hide, encryption will only increase the impact which such an event would have on my wife and me. If such an event were to occur and I was using strong encryption to protect my data, I'd be asked for any encryption keys, detained for much longer, and if I refused to cooperate in any way I'd have my things permanently confiscated and face refusal of entry. If I find myself in this situation, I'll be looking to minimize impact. I'll cooperate while trying as best as I can not to compromise my values, and then raise hell after the fact.

erjjones 13y ago
Ship your stuff before you go
- benjamincburns 13y ago
  Because customs doesn't search shipments? No. If my stuff is searched/seized, I'd rather be aware of it happening.
  - utunga 13y ago
    Dude on a practical level this might be your best bet.
- patrickdavey 13y ago

alexanderx 13y ago

Yeah maybe it is his last name.

kysol 13y ago

Time to switch login prompt to "Logging in with username and password" and have a dummy account that can delete files upon login. Provide the fairly clueless customs official with the loaded login credentials and damage done before they realise. Not that I have anything to hide... that being said they will probably just back door into my laptop next time I'm on and deactivate any form of tripwire. Curse you NSA, always streets ahead! (Note: If I wasn't on their radar, I am now... /sigh, it was a joke)

nwh 13y ago
Pulling that sort of stunt would probably get you in a lot of trouble.
- fractallyte 13y ago
  You must stop thinking like a victim. It's your property, your responsibility, your freedom, your life. Assert yourself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
  - lukifer 13y ago
    The fear of death is the beginning of slavery.
  - rwallace 13y ago
    Okay, your heart is definitely in the right place, but if you're going to assert yourself over your electronic gear at the airport, do not for heaven's sake do it by playing cute half-clever tricks with hidden volumes or self-destructing software. Do it by politely but firmly refusing to hand over passwords; then the worst that's at all likely to happen to you is that they send you home without your gear.
yaeger 13y ago
Not necessary to do harm to your data. What you want is truecrypt with a shadow partition. See, forensics can tell if your laptop drive has an encrypted partition. But they can't tell how many. So, set up a dummy encrypted partition with user/pass and your normally used partition with user/pass. Depending on which user/pass you enter, truecrypt will decrypt the appropriate partition. The government can snoop all they want on your dummy partition. They will find nothing. When they ask why you encrypted it, you tell them because you always protect your things. You also lock your house when you leave etc. Of course you should have some things on your dummy partition that make it look like it is actually being used. If you just have a freshly installed OS with no sign of usage, that might get noticed.

tn13 13y ago

Terrorism: Terrorism is the systematic use of violence (terror) as a means of coercion for political purposes. If you define violence as intimidating (of), physical and mental torture then all governments top the list.

hkmurakami 13y ago

I remember fellow HN'er Steve Kablink saying on twitter that the only reason he hadn't done a FOIA request on himself is because... they probably have a list of people who have done a FOIA request on themselves (but that he'd be doing one soon out of principle). This kind of heavy handed, precedent setting, dissent-disincentivizing move is just sad to see happen (and perhaps sadder that I feel completely at its mercy and feel it affecting my actions concretely)

reginaldjcooper 13y ago
I haven't done one because a. what are they going to give me that I don't already suspect b. it's another data point for them to use in modeling. I don't turn on DNT in browsers either but I still run AdBlock and restrict third-party requests by a lot.

patio11 13y ago

Not quite so relevant to NZ but since I'm guessing many HNers are wondering what happens at the US border: https://www.eff.org/wp/defending-privacy-us-border-guide-travelers-carrying-digital-devices https://www.eff.org/wp/defending-privacy-us-border-guide-tra... I worry about this, since I travel frequently. Then again, I also worry about plane crashes. I think both are probably irrational, but having plans is what keeps the boogeyman away at night, so here's mine: 1) Remain polite and professional. 2) Decline to consent to any search. Comply with officers' demands that they tell me I'm legally required to comply with. Ask for that demand to be produced in writing. I'm willing to wait for a supervisor while they figure out how to do that, even if it means I miss my flight. I will get a receipt and/or report number and/or some other official written record of the incident if any seizure, including seizure of information, takes place. 3) Immediately after reaching my destination, file written grievances with any and all responsible agencies. They must have a spreadsheet tracking passenger complaints somewhere. Let's increment that while having someone commit, on paper, to a version of events of what happened and a legal rationale to why that was justified. This will only cost me a bit of time and money, and I have lots of time and money, but it has heavily asymmetric payoff in the event of a lawsuit or PR battle. But honestly? Mathematically, I'm much, much more at risk of getting mugged in Chicago on my way home from the airport than getting held up by Customs. I don't exactly live in fear of muggings but I take sensible precautions like e.g. backing up my data, making sure that I can turn a factory-new laptop into a working dev environment within a day, and carrying insurance. I'm pretty sure most of these still work even if I happen to lose a laptop to Customs rather than to a mugger.

salient 13y ago
Do you get searched by the TSA even when you're using the US airport as a hub, and not visiting US? Because I was already thinking of avoiding US as a hub if possible, but I wasn't sure if it was necessary or not.
- rbritton 13y ago
  TSA searches only usually apply at the transition points from the outside into the terminals. Not all airports have the terminals all connected on the "secure" side though, so if changing airlines you may have to go through them. Customs is a different story, and I'm not sure how that works in this case.

sayanchowdhury 13y ago

A tight slap to our rights and privacy.

jrockway 13y ago

If you're visiting a country you're not a citizen of, bring your data in over the Internet. (Yes, there's the NSA thing, but it's still unclear what they can break. My guess is that they have not broken the crypto itself, only some buggy implementations.) If you're a citizen of the country, encrypt your data and let the courts figure out whether or not they can compel you to provide the key. (Or, they can publicly declare that they've broken AES, and get your data anyway. Either way, it's a win.) Also strongly agree with patio11 on getting everything in writing. This is now a criminal investigation. Make sure you have what you need to defend yourself in court.

a3n 13y ago
If the NSA wants your data they already have it, or can get it anytime they want from you or your service providers. It could change in the future, but at the moment we're all pwned. The problem for an essentially law abiding individual crossing a border is having access to their own data after crossing. Hardware fetishes notwithstanding, the hardware and its possible loss doesn't matter at all, it's the data held by the hardware or that the hardware gives access to. So: - If you can, stop buying expensive hardware. It doesn't matter. - Don't carry hardware across borders that you can't emotionally or economically walk away from forever. - The only copy of data that you depend on should not be on hardware that you cross a border with. Have it accessible on a server, the cloud, or with a colleague that can ship it to you electronically or physically after safely crossing borders. - Accept that you may have to buy cheap disposable hardware after exiting border checkpoints. - Worst case, plan for not having access to any hardware or data after exiting border checkpoints; you may not have your own hardware, you may not be able to buy any, and you may not have access to your data at all. Plan C, if you will.

kevcampb 13y ago

I'm not so convinced on the conspiracy theories here. I say that as I had a similar experience in Auckland airport a couple of years ago, when travelling to another destination in the country. The guy who interviewed me was actually very polite and friendly. They said I'd probably been flagged up as suspicious due to my itinerary. I'd travelled from China, for a 2 day visit to see a customer, with tickets booked via a US agent (Expedia). Suspect that living in China at the time had quite a bit to do with it. Got asked all kinds of questions, most of which I didn't know the answer to. Didn't get my laptop searched or asked for any passwords, but they did make a point of asking if I had any porn on my computer. I said no, and they asked no more. They way they asked though did make it sound like it was a bit of an issue to them. Took almost 2 hours in total. I actually didn't find it particularly stressful, mostly as I still made my next flight. I'd had far worse times travelling to the US, and getting some vindictive border agency guard who's out to get you by any means possible. Really, I loathe US immigration.

waynecochran 13y ago

Whenever I read these I always think there is more to the story -- usually I find out later that the "victim" was being a jerk (not that they should hassle jerks -- but that is human nature).

slater 13y ago

surely this...?

pranayairan 13y ago

this is sad

lastwayhome 13y ago

Lets all just remember that he is at this stage the first for this to happen to. I'm a kiwi and on a New Zealand watch list for other reasons and this has never happened to me. No need to get scared, thousands upon thousands of people fly through nz airports all the time and this never happens. I follow this sort of thing and its the first I've heard.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

zobzu 13y ago

So its still news to people that customs agents are all powerful.. :) turns out that if you think police was bad, custom is 1000 worse. They can do literally anything and that's not just the USA. It's the same everywhere in Europe for example. Also, I would strongly advise giving out your password if you want to be on your way. Refusal to give access is generally a huge issue.

csense 13y ago

I don't really travel internationally, but I decided -- about ten years ago, when people first started talking about the way laptops are searched at borders -- that if I do feel the urge to travel internationally with my laptop, I'll dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda on all my gadgets before I cross any national border. Of course you want to have VNC / ssh set up ahead of time so you can actually do stuff...

elchief 13y ago

As Bruce Schneier suggests, when crossing a border, encrypt your drives and change your password to something so long and convoluted you cannot possibly remember it. Give you password to a trusted friend (preferably your lawyer) with instructions not to give you the password until you get home or to your destination.

jmspring 13y ago

Dear HN -- In the US, please start making a distinction between CPB and DHS. One governs entry into the county the other is responsible for security when boarding a plane. CPB -- http://www.cbp.gov http://www.cbp.gov DHS -- http://www.dhs.gov http://www.dhs.gov

Cthulhu_ 13y ago

I have bank code on my (encrypted) laptop (and the code itself is in an encrypted container), I'd like to see them demand I give up the passwords, then have the US involved in a big corporate espionage lawsuit vs one of the world's largest banks. Actually nvm, I don't, I wiped my hard drive before bringing it in for repairs.

motters 13y ago

I've tweeted and blogged against the surveillance state many times, so I guess I must also be on whatever list this guy is on.

binarymax 13y ago

Never declare anything, ever. And if they pull you out for a search anyway, play ignorant.

samhoggnz 13y ago
This is terrible advice, especially in the New Zealand context. Playing ignorant will get you into a lot more trouble than being honest, and will just fuel the fire more.

jaytheham 13y ago

As an NZ citizen who is outraged at this pathetic kowtowing to US interests, anyone have any good ideas about who or what I can direct pissed off emails to? it would be nice to at least feel i've tried to do something

grugq 13y ago

This is why professionals operate on "Naked In/Naked Out". Show up with nothing, acquire all your tooling in the country, execute your operational activities, dispose of the tooling, leave the country with nothing. Expensive, but safe. These sorts of harassment measures are only capable of catching amateurs making serious operational mistakes. They will not catch professionals or serious operatives. I can never understand how this passes for counter-terrorism when it is really just "counter-clumsy-terrorists", at best.

seefriek 13y ago
Agreed, mostly. We always maintained a pool of "disposable" kit (laptop, phones, etc) with a minimum of "stuff" loaded (OS, major productivity apps, some publicly available documents, etc). Go ahead and search or seize, no worries. Carrying it avoids the awkward "so you're here to do IT stuff, but you don't have a laptop or phone...hmmmmm".

abdulqabiz 13y ago

Sad. After a long flight one has to go through this. I have gone through my share. I forgot to declare an apple given by Singapore airline. I kept apple in my bag in rush while getting out of aircraft, and was so sleepy to realise I need to declare it. I was held there for sometime. I was fined USD 200. The most expensive fruit of my life. I didn't even get to keep it with me. Some of people on airport were like robots, they didn't have any reaction (on their faces) for my plea.

bonemachine 13y ago

However, a Customs official has since told him they were searching everything for objectionable material under the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act 1993. Yeah right.

BrownBuffalo 13y ago

My question - does the local border patrol have the ability to break bitlock encryption on a laptop I bring there? I mean, who from HN travels w/o something like this done on your computer in the first place?!

PeterisP 13y ago
They apparently have the ability to ask you for the password and take your stuff or refuse entry if you don't cooperate. IMHO they shouldn't, but that's a different issue.

BrownBuffalo 13y ago

Lots to consider as well - travel to the US can be rather dicey for foreign travelers, so here is what you _can_ do to become better prepared for travel here - http://www.cba.org/CBa/PracticeLink/tayp/laptopborder.aspx http://www.cba.org/CBa/PracticeLink/tayp/laptopborder.aspx

tynan 13y ago

I had an interaction like this in Canada. The options they give you are to give up your passwords, log in to your online banks to show them transactions, etc., or have everything confiscated. The reason they did it to me is because they thought I was a drug smuggler. They got that idea because I was going to China and didn't have a fixed itinerary, which they found to be incredibly suspicious. I'm not sure if the non-techie cop was playing good cop/bad cop or not, but he was yelling at me and accusing me of being a liar from the beginning. Because I knew I hadn't done anything wrong and wasn't lying, it was pretty comical, but it became really upsetting once they started threatening to seize everything if I didn't give up my passwords.

dpatrick86 13y ago
Sort of amusing that it's the lack of fixed schedule that really rattled him. Dude sounds like he could use a sabbatical himself.

rumbler 13y ago

I routinely carry microSD cards filled with 16GB of random numbers.