7 ms·

I would love to find an ergonomic mechanical keyboard. I tried the Truly Ergonomic but sent it back because it hurt my wrists. I'm not sure I'd like the Kinesis

I would love to find an ergonomic mechanical keyboard. I tried the Truly Ergonomic but sent it back because it hurt my wrists. I'm not sure I'd like the Kinesis bowls; perhaps I'll try it eventually. What I'd really like is a Microsoft Natural keyboard, but with mechanical switches. Is there anything like that out there?

cfallin 13y ago
I'll throw my vote in for the Kinesis Advantage along with the others. It made a huge difference, especially for Emacs pinky. The thumb keys are wonderful and make so much more sense than wasting both thumbs on a spacebar. As a datapoint, when I switched cold-turkey, it took about a week to be passable (~40wpm) and another week or two to get up to normal speed (~100wpm). The letter keys in the bowls actually aren't so bad; the harder part for me was retraining the control keys and punctuation. It's totally worth it though, and IMHO much easier than a full layout retraining (e.g. Dvorak, which I've given up on twice).
- was_hellbanned 13y ago
  >Dvorak, which I've given up on twice I learned Dvorak before switching to the Kinesis. I was only able to do it by having some strategic down-time in my job, and I would say it took around a full year before I was even close to my old QWERTY speed. I can now switch between QWERTY (laptop) and DVORAK (desktop) with only an occasional hitch. Take it from me: the advantage of Dvorak pales in comparison to the advantage of a good keyboard. Add in the fact that the whole world (games, vim, cut/copy/paste) revolves around QWERTY, and Dvorak starts to lose its luster. (Come to think of it, the biggest plus for me with Dvorak is that I can left-hand mouse and hit copy/paste/undo with my right hand...)
  - Kuiper 13y ago
    I've found Colemak to be a nice alternative that avoids may of the Dvorak pitfalls you mentioned. The z, x, c, v, and w keys are in the same position they are in QWERTY layout, meaning that the common shortcuts for functions like cut, copy, paste, undo, close tab, are unchanged. Perhaps more importantly, the punctuation remains unchanged, which I consider to be a plus for programmers, who regularly need to make use of brackets of various kinds. (I feel it's worth noting that the Dvorak layout was created in 1936, and probably did not take the syntax of modern programming languages into account.) Because Colemak has more overlap with the QWERTY keyboard, the learning curve is much more gentle; it took me about 2 weeks to get up to around 50% of my old QWERTY WPM, and probably less than 3 months to get where I felt I could match my old WPM. By 1 month in I felt that I was efficient enough with Colemak that it was worth it to type a bit slower in exchange for the increase in comfort it afforded. I've found that the biggest inefficiency that came with the transition was not physical, but mental. During the early weeks of learning the new layout, I needed to actually devote some conscious thought to what my fingers are doing, meaning that those brain cycles couldn't be used to process what I was about to type next, leading to a process where I frequently needed to pause and think about what I was typing, whereas it's typically more continuous and interruption-free as my fingers try to keep up with my brain. During the first few weeks of transitioning, I used Colemak only for "clerical" tasks like writing emails and some documentation I was working on at the time, and not for coding.
- neoflame 13y ago
  Question for the Kinesis folks: does the height bother you at all? I've been considering buying a Kinesis Advantage, but in a comfortable seating position, with my forearms and thighs level with the ground, there's not much space between my arms and legs. I'm currently using a relatively short keyboard, on a keyboard tray, at work, and already find myself bumping the keyboard tray with my legs fairly frequently.
  - clarry 13y ago
    My forearms are tilted upwards very slightly; the kinesis is indeed a bit "high" and my desk has no keyboard tray, nor is the height adjustable. It does bother me in the sense that I would prefer to have my forearms level or tilted slightly downwards. On the other hand, it doesn't feel like my setup is causing any actual discomfort or ergonomic problems.
  - travisb 13y ago
    I use my Advantage directly on my legs without a keyboard tray. In that configuration the height of the Advantage is very nearly optimal. At least for me, it naturally puts my arms into an ergonomically suggested posture with my arms straight down, bent to approximately ninety degrees, my wrists held straight onto the palm rests.
obrajesse 13y ago
There have been a few, but there aren't any in production right now, as far as I know. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47590.30 http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47590.30 may have some leads.
sliverstorm 13y ago
Have you tried the Freestyle2? I don't think it has mechanical keys, but they are still nice action. I'm typing on one now. I like it better than my Microsoft Natural Ergo, although the Microsoft board is a bit more "silky".
cpwright 13y ago
I used to use the Microsoft Natural keyboard Elite, from probably around 1998 until late 2011, when the one I had at work broke and I couldn't find a suitable replacement. I tried one of the other Microsoft ergonomic keyboards, and found it to be lacking. I've since switched to the Kinesis; after a lot of consideration as I was worried I would spend a lot on a keyboard and not like it, but I am incredibly satisfied with it. I have one at home and one at work, and now prefer typing on it to anything else. It is also assembled in the USA, which I count as a plus.
jseliger 13y ago
I'm not sure I'd like the Kinesis bowls; perhaps I'll try it eventually I got a review copy of the Kinesis Advantage, tried the keyboard for a while, wrote a review (http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2009/07/20/kinesis-advantage/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2009/07/20/kinesis-advantage/), sent back the review copy, and, a couple weeks later, bought the Advantage. YMMV, but I think they have a somewhat long return period in part to assuage people in your situation.
- ryan-c 13y ago
  Kinesis is also super hacker friendly. If you email them and ask they'll sell keyboards without the keyswitches so you can put in cherry blue or cherry clear switches. They've also been very willing to provide technical information - they sent me mechanical diagrams of the main PCB so I could build a replacement controller running custom firmware, as well as part numbers for the ZIF connectors.
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  What would you use as a pointing device with the Kinesis though? I've grown quite attached to the RollerMouse classic over the years as the ultimate pointing device but I'm wondering how that would work with the Kinesis. Hacking a trackpad in the middle also seems like an odd compromise ...
  - wahnfrieden 13y ago
    I'm happy with an apple trackpad in the center.
  - Adrock 13y ago
    It's a shame that the images were lost after geekhack.org was hacked, but the most compelling solution I saw was the mod to add a trackpoint: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=32232.0 http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=32232.0 You can see some attempts here: https://www.google.com/search?q=kinesis+trackpoint&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=kinesis+trackpoint&tbm=isch When I first got my Kinesis Advantage, I secured the Adesso Smart Cat trackpad to the middle: http://www.amazon.com/Adesso-Button-Glidepoint-Touchpad-GP-410UB/dp/B000FVIHY0/ http://www.amazon.com/Adesso-Button-Glidepoint-Touchpad-GP-4... It's what the other Kinesis users around me were using and it's the only wired touchpad that could fit. It's a piece of garbage and I've given up on it. I've fallen back on using my Evoluent Vertical Mouse, as it's the only mouse that doesn't leave me in pain. The real answer is that I've adapted my tools and workflow to be as keyboard operational as possible, using a tiling window manager, Emacs, and Conkeror for everything.
gtaylor 13y ago
I too was hesitant to jump on the Kinesis Advantage, but my hands were hurting so bad that I sprung for it on Amazon for about $260. It has definitely taken some getting used to, but I am typing pain-free for about a month and a half. I am a software developer by trade, so I use a big chunk of the keys and do so without issues. Only thing I don't like is that the bracket/brace keys are really out of the way. If I cared enough I'd move and re-map them (the keyboard is very customizable), but I don't.
- jbellis 13y ago
  Bracket/brace are fine if you use your little finger properly. Really it's a better position than "standard" keyboards since you only have to reach down vertically instead of having to move laterally as well which reduces accuracy. Using a Kinesis is possibly the best way to unlearn all your bad typing habits. :) /Kinesis user for 12 years
  - gtaylor 13y ago
    I think they staggered the right bracket a little too much to be optimal. This means you still have to reach much further than the other fingers do for stuff like periods and commas. I've seen this mentioned pretty frequently, so there are some good mapping ideas out there for those who use languages with lots of braces.
    - jbellis 13y ago
      On the ~2011 model I'm using in the office, right brace is exactly under the question mark and semicolon. It's not staggered to the right at all.
rdtsc 13y ago
Have you tried an IBM model M or Thinkpad's keyboard? Neither ergonomic. But I am not kidding, I prefer my laptop's keyboard to many other full sized keyboards, also I think my trusty 20+ years old IBM model M is one of the best in general. Maybe it is all in my head more than in my hands, but that is my 2 cents. Well actually I tried an ergonomic keyboard before and it wasn't bad, except for when I had to go back to using a regular one at other workstations. It was hard because I had gotten so used the ergonomic design. So I prefer the "rectangular" kind since then.
- obrajesse 13y ago
  Yes, yes I have. One of my all-time favorite keyboards is my IBM M15: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/obra/8410679346/ https://secure.flickr.com/photos/obra/8410679346/ If I could get buckling springs as keyswitch units, I'd be using em. I've tried just about everything: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/obra/sets/72157632594731205/ https://secure.flickr.com/photos/obra/sets/72157632594731205...
  - erik 13y ago
    Oh, the split key Model M. Very nice. For anyone having problems with the links, the public urls are: http://www.flickr.com/photos/obra/8410679346/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/obra/8410679346/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/obra/sets/72157632594731205/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/obra/sets/72157632594731205/
was_hellbanned 13y ago
The Kinesis classic is the keyboard that saved my career. My wrist pain actually increased slightly when I first got it, due to the strain of having to interrupt my years-old muscle memory. It took several days for the thumb keys to become (somewhat) automatic. Within a couple of weeks, I was on my way to pain-free computing. It's now been over a decade, and I consider the Kinesis keyboard to be the primary factor in my recovery.
JayRay 13y ago
There are tons out there. I've been using the new Kinesis Freestyle for a while and it's by far my favorite. Here's a good review of the product http://www.bestergonomickeyboard.net/kinesis-keyboard-ergonomic-review/ http://www.bestergonomickeyboard.net/kinesis-keyboard-ergono... There are several reviews of ergonomic keyboards on this site so you can glance around, I'm sure you'll find your fit.

cfallin 13y ago

I'll throw my vote in for the Kinesis Advantage along with the others. It made a huge difference, especially for Emacs pinky. The thumb keys are wonderful and make so much more sense than wasting both thumbs on a spacebar. As a datapoint, when I switched cold-turkey, it took about a week to be passable (~40wpm) and another week or two to get up to normal speed (~100wpm). The letter keys in the bowls actually aren't so bad; the harder part for me was retraining the control keys and punctuation. It's totally worth it though, and IMHO much easier than a full layout retraining (e.g. Dvorak, which I've given up on twice).

was_hellbanned 13y ago
>Dvorak, which I've given up on twice I learned Dvorak before switching to the Kinesis. I was only able to do it by having some strategic down-time in my job, and I would say it took around a full year before I was even close to my old QWERTY speed. I can now switch between QWERTY (laptop) and DVORAK (desktop) with only an occasional hitch. Take it from me: the advantage of Dvorak pales in comparison to the advantage of a good keyboard. Add in the fact that the whole world (games, vim, cut/copy/paste) revolves around QWERTY, and Dvorak starts to lose its luster. (Come to think of it, the biggest plus for me with Dvorak is that I can left-hand mouse and hit copy/paste/undo with my right hand...)
- Kuiper 13y ago
  I've found Colemak to be a nice alternative that avoids may of the Dvorak pitfalls you mentioned. The z, x, c, v, and w keys are in the same position they are in QWERTY layout, meaning that the common shortcuts for functions like cut, copy, paste, undo, close tab, are unchanged. Perhaps more importantly, the punctuation remains unchanged, which I consider to be a plus for programmers, who regularly need to make use of brackets of various kinds. (I feel it's worth noting that the Dvorak layout was created in 1936, and probably did not take the syntax of modern programming languages into account.) Because Colemak has more overlap with the QWERTY keyboard, the learning curve is much more gentle; it took me about 2 weeks to get up to around 50% of my old QWERTY WPM, and probably less than 3 months to get where I felt I could match my old WPM. By 1 month in I felt that I was efficient enough with Colemak that it was worth it to type a bit slower in exchange for the increase in comfort it afforded. I've found that the biggest inefficiency that came with the transition was not physical, but mental. During the early weeks of learning the new layout, I needed to actually devote some conscious thought to what my fingers are doing, meaning that those brain cycles couldn't be used to process what I was about to type next, leading to a process where I frequently needed to pause and think about what I was typing, whereas it's typically more continuous and interruption-free as my fingers try to keep up with my brain. During the first few weeks of transitioning, I used Colemak only for "clerical" tasks like writing emails and some documentation I was working on at the time, and not for coding.
neoflame 13y ago
Question for the Kinesis folks: does the height bother you at all? I've been considering buying a Kinesis Advantage, but in a comfortable seating position, with my forearms and thighs level with the ground, there's not much space between my arms and legs. I'm currently using a relatively short keyboard, on a keyboard tray, at work, and already find myself bumping the keyboard tray with my legs fairly frequently.
- clarry 13y ago
  My forearms are tilted upwards very slightly; the kinesis is indeed a bit "high" and my desk has no keyboard tray, nor is the height adjustable. It does bother me in the sense that I would prefer to have my forearms level or tilted slightly downwards. On the other hand, it doesn't feel like my setup is causing any actual discomfort or ergonomic problems.
- travisb 13y ago
  I use my Advantage directly on my legs without a keyboard tray. In that configuration the height of the Advantage is very nearly optimal. At least for me, it naturally puts my arms into an ergonomically suggested posture with my arms straight down, bent to approximately ninety degrees, my wrists held straight onto the palm rests.

obrajesse 13y ago

There have been a few, but there aren't any in production right now, as far as I know. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47590.30 http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47590.30 may have some leads.

sliverstorm 13y ago

Have you tried the Freestyle2? I don't think it has mechanical keys, but they are still nice action. I'm typing on one now. I like it better than my Microsoft Natural Ergo, although the Microsoft board is a bit more "silky".

cpwright 13y ago

I used to use the Microsoft Natural keyboard Elite, from probably around 1998 until late 2011, when the one I had at work broke and I couldn't find a suitable replacement. I tried one of the other Microsoft ergonomic keyboards, and found it to be lacking. I've since switched to the Kinesis; after a lot of consideration as I was worried I would spend a lot on a keyboard and not like it, but I am incredibly satisfied with it. I have one at home and one at work, and now prefer typing on it to anything else. It is also assembled in the USA, which I count as a plus.

jseliger 13y ago

I'm not sure I'd like the Kinesis bowls; perhaps I'll try it eventually I got a review copy of the Kinesis Advantage, tried the keyboard for a while, wrote a review (http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2009/07/20/kinesis-advantage/ http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2009/07/20/kinesis-advantage/), sent back the review copy, and, a couple weeks later, bought the Advantage. YMMV, but I think they have a somewhat long return period in part to assuage people in your situation.

ryan-c 13y ago
Kinesis is also super hacker friendly. If you email them and ask they'll sell keyboards without the keyswitches so you can put in cherry blue or cherry clear switches. They've also been very willing to provide technical information - they sent me mechanical diagrams of the main PCB so I could build a replacement controller running custom firmware, as well as part numbers for the ZIF connectors.
mtrimpe 13y ago
What would you use as a pointing device with the Kinesis though? I've grown quite attached to the RollerMouse classic over the years as the ultimate pointing device but I'm wondering how that would work with the Kinesis. Hacking a trackpad in the middle also seems like an odd compromise ...
- wahnfrieden 13y ago
  I'm happy with an apple trackpad in the center.
- Adrock 13y ago
  It's a shame that the images were lost after geekhack.org was hacked, but the most compelling solution I saw was the mod to add a trackpoint: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=32232.0 http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=32232.0 You can see some attempts here: https://www.google.com/search?q=kinesis+trackpoint&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=kinesis+trackpoint&tbm=isch When I first got my Kinesis Advantage, I secured the Adesso Smart Cat trackpad to the middle: http://www.amazon.com/Adesso-Button-Glidepoint-Touchpad-GP-410UB/dp/B000FVIHY0/ http://www.amazon.com/Adesso-Button-Glidepoint-Touchpad-GP-4... It's what the other Kinesis users around me were using and it's the only wired touchpad that could fit. It's a piece of garbage and I've given up on it. I've fallen back on using my Evoluent Vertical Mouse, as it's the only mouse that doesn't leave me in pain. The real answer is that I've adapted my tools and workflow to be as keyboard operational as possible, using a tiling window manager, Emacs, and Conkeror for everything.

gtaylor 13y ago

I too was hesitant to jump on the Kinesis Advantage, but my hands were hurting so bad that I sprung for it on Amazon for about $260. It has definitely taken some getting used to, but I am typing pain-free for about a month and a half. I am a software developer by trade, so I use a big chunk of the keys and do so without issues. Only thing I don't like is that the bracket/brace keys are really out of the way. If I cared enough I'd move and re-map them (the keyboard is very customizable), but I don't.

jbellis 13y ago
Bracket/brace are fine if you use your little finger properly. Really it's a better position than "standard" keyboards since you only have to reach down vertically instead of having to move laterally as well which reduces accuracy. Using a Kinesis is possibly the best way to unlearn all your bad typing habits. :) /Kinesis user for 12 years
- gtaylor 13y ago
  I think they staggered the right bracket a little too much to be optimal. This means you still have to reach much further than the other fingers do for stuff like periods and commas. I've seen this mentioned pretty frequently, so there are some good mapping ideas out there for those who use languages with lots of braces.
  - jbellis 13y ago
    On the ~2011 model I'm using in the office, right brace is exactly under the question mark and semicolon. It's not staggered to the right at all.

rdtsc 13y ago

Have you tried an IBM model M or Thinkpad's keyboard? Neither ergonomic. But I am not kidding, I prefer my laptop's keyboard to many other full sized keyboards, also I think my trusty 20+ years old IBM model M is one of the best in general. Maybe it is all in my head more than in my hands, but that is my 2 cents. Well actually I tried an ergonomic keyboard before and it wasn't bad, except for when I had to go back to using a regular one at other workstations. It was hard because I had gotten so used the ergonomic design. So I prefer the "rectangular" kind since then.

obrajesse 13y ago
Yes, yes I have. One of my all-time favorite keyboards is my IBM M15: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/obra/8410679346/ https://secure.flickr.com/photos/obra/8410679346/ If I could get buckling springs as keyswitch units, I'd be using em. I've tried just about everything: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/obra/sets/72157632594731205/ https://secure.flickr.com/photos/obra/sets/72157632594731205...
- erik 13y ago
  Oh, the split key Model M. Very nice. For anyone having problems with the links, the public urls are: http://www.flickr.com/photos/obra/8410679346/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/obra/8410679346/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/obra/sets/72157632594731205/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/obra/sets/72157632594731205/

was_hellbanned 13y ago

The Kinesis classic is the keyboard that saved my career. My wrist pain actually increased slightly when I first got it, due to the strain of having to interrupt my years-old muscle memory. It took several days for the thumb keys to become (somewhat) automatic. Within a couple of weeks, I was on my way to pain-free computing. It's now been over a decade, and I consider the Kinesis keyboard to be the primary factor in my recovery.

JayRay 13y ago

There are tons out there. I've been using the new Kinesis Freestyle for a while and it's by far my favorite. Here's a good review of the product http://www.bestergonomickeyboard.net/kinesis-keyboard-ergonomic-review/ http://www.bestergonomickeyboard.net/kinesis-keyboard-ergono... There are several reviews of ergonomic keyboards on this site so you can glance around, I'm sure you'll find your fit.