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Please note the difference here between the US and the EU. In the EU, foreign treaties DO NOT require parliament approval (this is required by the EU treaty), a

by waps 13y ago

Please note the difference here between the US and the EU. In the EU, foreign treaties DO NOT require parliament approval (this is required by the EU treaty), and as such mean that effectively 1) No member of the EU has separation of powers, a very important part of the legislative power is vested in the (equivalent of) the ministry of foreign affairs. 2) Since the EU commission can unilaterally impose treaties even without approval of that ministry that have legislative authority, no EU member country can be said to be a sovereign nation. There is only the EU (which is further illustrated, for example, in that the EU has it's own embassies and hosts it's own embassies in for example China).

Joeri 13y ago
Sources please. I'm pretty sure none of what you said is accurate. There is no such thing as EU law because there is no EU consitution, the EU itself is just a set of a treaties and thereby always subservient to national laws. Any member state can quit the EU at any time, but they would also lose the considerable benefits, which is why even vehement anti-EU governments like the UK choose to be part of the EU. All laws in europe are national laws and must be approved by the respective parliaments. EU directives must be transcribed into national law before they go into effect, and all EU directives must be voted by the EU parliament before they go to the national parliaments (although the vote isn't always binding, that part is a bit complicated). The EU commission has no lawmaking powers to my knowledge, they are allowed to draft proposals, but they cannot bring them into law.
- LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
  Lisbon Treaty is an EU Consitution. They needed to change the name from Constitution to Treaty once French and Dutch voted no. That's how much they respect democratic process. They hate democracy, they call it 'populism'. Nobody can quit EU - look at Greece! They are not allowed to. They have to suffer in Euro prison forever, till the German banks will be repaid each and every euro-cent! And even if someone quits then - looking at the EU history - they will be voting every year to re-join till they eventually say 'yes'. Again, no respect for democratic process. Any vote that's not in alignment with the EU unelected officials like Barroso (Marxist) or Van Rumpoy is called 'populism', 'nazism', 'anti-democratic'. Go to hell with your Marxism, stop spreading this cancer on this beautiful continent.
  - patrickk 13y ago
    Ireland rejected both the Nice Treaty originally[1] and the Lisbon Treaty[2]. Our considerate government had the stupid, uneducated electorate have a second attempt at both referendums until we came up with the "right" answer. Talking about being undemocratic. My own view is that if you put most issues to a popular referendum, people would vote no. It's the assholes in national governments and in Brussels who ram through stuff that only the elite wants. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/18/eu.politics1 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/18/eu.politics1 [2] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8288181.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8288181.stm
  - Joeri 13y ago
    Just because you've decided to call it a constitution doesn't make it so. Even the greeks could quit the EU at any time, but they cannot quit their debts which they entered into as a sovereign nation. Greece lied, for years, about their ability to repay loans, to get more loans than they could handle, and they even went so far as to ask big american financial companies to help them cook their books, which shows it wasn't just a lapse in judgment. Now, in the defense of greece, all the other EU countries knew they were lying from the beginning, and they pretended they didn't because they wanted to prove people like you wrong and show the EU could bring prosperity to all including the greece. In the line of bad ideas, that only comes second to the german notion that greece must repay their loans in full, even if it bankrupts them. So, yeah, everybody messed up gloriously. That still doesn't change a thing to the fact that the EU process has brought peace to half a billion people for the first time since never, and with peace has come prosperity for most (sadly not all though). The current Europe is however still better for its people than any Europe in history, despite its many flaws. I know europe-bashing is popular in many regions in europe right now because things are bad and it's an easy scape-goat for inept or incapable national governments and an easy target for jingoistic parties hoping to channel frustration and fear into votes ('populism'), but no rational analysis can say that europe is the cause of the current economic woes, except perhaps for the greeks. I see only two paths out of this situation: (1) less EU, nationalism and protectionism, and (2) more EU, moving democracy up to the EU level by giving true power to the EU parliament. The first path takes us back to the europe that was, a continent rife with war and poverty. I'll take option 2 thank you very much. Btw, marxism, really? You're trolling, right?
- alasdair_ 13y ago
  >"There is no such thing as EU law" The European Court of Human Rights (for example) has frequently overruled national law and their rulings stand, even in the face of national opposition.
barry-cotter 13y ago
This is mostly wrong. It's true that EU member states don't have a separation of legislature and executive but so what? Separation of powers sounds great in theory but the benefits are grossly oversold. One could technically argue that the ministry of foreign affairs has some legislative power by virtue of its role in negotiating treaties but it's a very misleading description. Treaties are Big Deals™ and require at the very least ratification by the Cabinet. This is one of the benefits of parliamentary government is that trying to do something appallingly stupid or unpopular can lead to an immediate change of government by a vote of no confidence. The closest equivalent for presidential systems is impeachment, which the US has never actually done, yes? 2) is just pure horseshit. Sovereignty is ultimately decided by men with guns and the EU doesn't have any. As a legal matter it's also horseshit but this comment is long enough for a phone already.

by waps 13y ago

Joeri 13y ago

Sources please. I'm pretty sure none of what you said is accurate. There is no such thing as EU law because there is no EU consitution, the EU itself is just a set of a treaties and thereby always subservient to national laws. Any member state can quit the EU at any time, but they would also lose the considerable benefits, which is why even vehement anti-EU governments like the UK choose to be part of the EU. All laws in europe are national laws and must be approved by the respective parliaments. EU directives must be transcribed into national law before they go into effect, and all EU directives must be voted by the EU parliament before they go to the national parliaments (although the vote isn't always binding, that part is a bit complicated). The EU commission has no lawmaking powers to my knowledge, they are allowed to draft proposals, but they cannot bring them into law.

LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
Lisbon Treaty is an EU Consitution. They needed to change the name from Constitution to Treaty once French and Dutch voted no. That's how much they respect democratic process. They hate democracy, they call it 'populism'. Nobody can quit EU - look at Greece! They are not allowed to. They have to suffer in Euro prison forever, till the German banks will be repaid each and every euro-cent! And even if someone quits then - looking at the EU history - they will be voting every year to re-join till they eventually say 'yes'. Again, no respect for democratic process. Any vote that's not in alignment with the EU unelected officials like Barroso (Marxist) or Van Rumpoy is called 'populism', 'nazism', 'anti-democratic'. Go to hell with your Marxism, stop spreading this cancer on this beautiful continent.
- patrickk 13y ago
  Ireland rejected both the Nice Treaty originally[1] and the Lisbon Treaty[2]. Our considerate government had the stupid, uneducated electorate have a second attempt at both referendums until we came up with the "right" answer. Talking about being undemocratic. My own view is that if you put most issues to a popular referendum, people would vote no. It's the assholes in national governments and in Brussels who ram through stuff that only the elite wants. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/18/eu.politics1 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/18/eu.politics1 [2] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8288181.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8288181.stm
- Joeri 13y ago
  Just because you've decided to call it a constitution doesn't make it so. Even the greeks could quit the EU at any time, but they cannot quit their debts which they entered into as a sovereign nation. Greece lied, for years, about their ability to repay loans, to get more loans than they could handle, and they even went so far as to ask big american financial companies to help them cook their books, which shows it wasn't just a lapse in judgment. Now, in the defense of greece, all the other EU countries knew they were lying from the beginning, and they pretended they didn't because they wanted to prove people like you wrong and show the EU could bring prosperity to all including the greece. In the line of bad ideas, that only comes second to the german notion that greece must repay their loans in full, even if it bankrupts them. So, yeah, everybody messed up gloriously. That still doesn't change a thing to the fact that the EU process has brought peace to half a billion people for the first time since never, and with peace has come prosperity for most (sadly not all though). The current Europe is however still better for its people than any Europe in history, despite its many flaws. I know europe-bashing is popular in many regions in europe right now because things are bad and it's an easy scape-goat for inept or incapable national governments and an easy target for jingoistic parties hoping to channel frustration and fear into votes ('populism'), but no rational analysis can say that europe is the cause of the current economic woes, except perhaps for the greeks. I see only two paths out of this situation: (1) less EU, nationalism and protectionism, and (2) more EU, moving democracy up to the EU level by giving true power to the EU parliament. The first path takes us back to the europe that was, a continent rife with war and poverty. I'll take option 2 thank you very much. Btw, marxism, really? You're trolling, right?
alasdair_ 13y ago
>"There is no such thing as EU law" The European Court of Human Rights (for example) has frequently overruled national law and their rulings stand, even in the face of national opposition.

barry-cotter 13y ago

This is mostly wrong. It's true that EU member states don't have a separation of legislature and executive but so what? Separation of powers sounds great in theory but the benefits are grossly oversold. One could technically argue that the ministry of foreign affairs has some legislative power by virtue of its role in negotiating treaties but it's a very misleading description. Treaties are Big Deals™ and require at the very least ratification by the Cabinet. This is one of the benefits of parliamentary government is that trying to do something appallingly stupid or unpopular can lead to an immediate change of government by a vote of no confidence. The closest equivalent for presidential systems is impeachment, which the US has never actually done, yes? 2) is just pure horseshit. Sovereignty is ultimately decided by men with guns and the EU doesn't have any. As a legal matter it's also horseshit but this comment is long enough for a phone already.