3 ms·

The effects are not well-studied for the uses described here. Indication of amphetamines and similar drugs for cognitive enhancement is primarily based on anec

by GHFigs 17y ago

The effects are not well-studied for the uses described here. Indication of amphetamines and similar drugs for cognitive enhancement is primarily based on anecdotal evidence and drug company PR in the popular press. Much of what we do know about the supposed benefits is tied in with the already controversial subject of ADHD. In my experience, calling the effects "enhancing your natural cognitive abilities" is extremely inaccurate, as the state of mind created is not one you can achieve naturally. That alone would not be bad, but there is a trend toward ignoring the difference. The risk here is that we recalibrate the world of normal human functioning to the standards of people high on speed.

gnaritas 17y ago
> The effects are not well-studied for the uses described here. That doesn't matter, what matters is the affect and side effects of the drug on people is known. This isn't a roll of the dice on some newly discovered drug where the long terms effects are unknown. > In my experience, calling the effects "enhancing your natural cognitive abilities" is extremely inaccurate, as the state of mind created is not one you can achieve naturally. Not true, people can and do naturally achieve extreme focus and flow, the drug isn't giving you new abilities, it's giving you more of an ability you already have and allowing you to control when you have it. > The risk here is that we recalibrate the world of normal human functioning to the standards of people high on speed. There's nothing wrong with that as long as people are aware of what they're doing and it's reasonably safe to do so. People have always used drugs, people are always going to use drugs, and as the drugs get better and better, more and more people will use them if they find it beneficial to do so.
- GHFigs 17y ago
  people can and do naturally achieve extreme focus and flow Yes, this is obvious, and I wasn't denying that at all. What is not obvious, and what there is no evidence for, is that these states are the same as what is achieved on stimulants. It is my own experience that they are very distintly different, and I would never refer to the effects of speed as "natural". The very fact that they are achieved in humans without use of stimulants should be a strong indication that the stimulants do not recreate the same effect. Lack of focus is not due to deficiency of Ritalin. it's giving you more of an ability you already have and allowing you to control when you have it. This is exactly what I am saying is not true. Taking speed does not do the same thing to your brain that your brain is ordinarily capable of doing to yourself. When you take speed, you're not making your brain function like one of a smarter person, no matter how much smarter you feel. Cognition is altered, not just enhanced, and I think it is a huge mistake to ignore that. We don't ignore it when talking about cocaine or any other illegal drugs that people report similarly positive effects from. Why are we so willing to ignore that distinction for these drugs? There's nothing wrong with that as long as people are aware of what they're doing and it's reasonably safe to do so. That people believe (as you do) that these drugs merely enhance existing brain function is a sign that people really aren't aware of what they are doing.
  - gnaritas 17y ago
    > What is not obvious, and what there is no evidence for, is that these states are the same as what is achieved on stimulants. It is my own experience that they are very distinctly different Who cares? Really? People use these drugs because they give you super focus, both the feeling, and the reality. You're too concerned about the mechanism rather than the effect. > The very fact that they are achieved in humans without use of stimulants should be a strong indication that the stimulants do not recreate the same effect. That makes no sense at all. Sleep is natural, it doesn't follow that any pill which also induces sleep is not doing it via the same mechanism. In fact, it's an indication of nothing, either way. > Lack of focus is not due to deficiency of Ritalin. No one claimed it was. You're ignoring the desire for superhuman focus. People take these when they want more focus than is natural. > That people believe (as you do) that these drugs merely enhance existing brain function is a sign that people really aren't aware of what they are doing. That people such as you are so strongly opposed is a sign that you're not objective about the issue and you assume others don't know the risks and if you could just educate them they'd change their behavior; you'd be wrong. People willingly take far worse and far less safe drugs off the street just to get high. Those who use prescription drugs like Ritalin off label to enhance work or study performance are not the people you need to be concerned with. Drug use is not drug abuse.
    - GHFigs 17y ago
      Who cares? Really? I would hope that anybody taking "cognitive enhancers" would care. It seems entirely relevant that one should know the difference between normal brain functioning and drug-induced brain functioning. My concern is that there is a trend towards not knowing the difference, and that this is being applauded. You're too concerned about the mechanism rather than the effect. I am specifically talking about the effect. It is different. It is not, in your words, "enhancing your natural cognitive abilities". You cannot honestly argue that it is the same as a natural state of focus while simultaneously claiming that the point is to have unnatural kind of focus. And yes, I regard the distinction between natural and unnatural states as important when it impacts things like (say) competition for top-tier education. That people such as you are so strongly opposed is a sign that you're not objective about the issue I have no idea what this means. You seem to be rejecting the validity of my opinion because it does not agree with yours. That's...deft. People willingly take far worse and far less safe drugs off the street just to get high. Those who use prescription drugs like Ritalin off label to enhance work or study performance are not the people you need to be concerned with. Taking Ritalin to "enhance work or study performance" is getting high. The effect of the drug is the same regardless of whether you take it to study or not. Why have we recently gotten a free pass to class it up by calling it "cognitive enhancement"? People have historically taken all kinds of drugs for performance reasons, be they legal, illegal, or legal but illegally obtained--many to famously great effect. What changed to allow us to use such different terminiology for the same act? What is the effect on our culture of continuing to do so? And why should I not be concerned with changing social norms?

by GHFigs 17y ago

gnaritas 17y ago

> The effects are not well-studied for the uses described here. That doesn't matter, what matters is the affect and side effects of the drug on people is known. This isn't a roll of the dice on some newly discovered drug where the long terms effects are unknown. > In my experience, calling the effects "enhancing your natural cognitive abilities" is extremely inaccurate, as the state of mind created is not one you can achieve naturally. Not true, people can and do naturally achieve extreme focus and flow, the drug isn't giving you new abilities, it's giving you more of an ability you already have and allowing you to control when you have it. > The risk here is that we recalibrate the world of normal human functioning to the standards of people high on speed. There's nothing wrong with that as long as people are aware of what they're doing and it's reasonably safe to do so. People have always used drugs, people are always going to use drugs, and as the drugs get better and better, more and more people will use them if they find it beneficial to do so.

GHFigs 17y ago
people can and do naturally achieve extreme focus and flow Yes, this is obvious, and I wasn't denying that at all. What is not obvious, and what there is no evidence for, is that these states are the same as what is achieved on stimulants. It is my own experience that they are very distintly different, and I would never refer to the effects of speed as "natural". The very fact that they are achieved in humans without use of stimulants should be a strong indication that the stimulants do not recreate the same effect. Lack of focus is not due to deficiency of Ritalin. it's giving you more of an ability you already have and allowing you to control when you have it. This is exactly what I am saying is not true. Taking speed does not do the same thing to your brain that your brain is ordinarily capable of doing to yourself. When you take speed, you're not making your brain function like one of a smarter person, no matter how much smarter you feel. Cognition is altered, not just enhanced, and I think it is a huge mistake to ignore that. We don't ignore it when talking about cocaine or any other illegal drugs that people report similarly positive effects from. Why are we so willing to ignore that distinction for these drugs? There's nothing wrong with that as long as people are aware of what they're doing and it's reasonably safe to do so. That people believe (as you do) that these drugs merely enhance existing brain function is a sign that people really aren't aware of what they are doing.
- gnaritas 17y ago
  > What is not obvious, and what there is no evidence for, is that these states are the same as what is achieved on stimulants. It is my own experience that they are very distinctly different Who cares? Really? People use these drugs because they give you super focus, both the feeling, and the reality. You're too concerned about the mechanism rather than the effect. > The very fact that they are achieved in humans without use of stimulants should be a strong indication that the stimulants do not recreate the same effect. That makes no sense at all. Sleep is natural, it doesn't follow that any pill which also induces sleep is not doing it via the same mechanism. In fact, it's an indication of nothing, either way. > Lack of focus is not due to deficiency of Ritalin. No one claimed it was. You're ignoring the desire for superhuman focus. People take these when they want more focus than is natural. > That people believe (as you do) that these drugs merely enhance existing brain function is a sign that people really aren't aware of what they are doing. That people such as you are so strongly opposed is a sign that you're not objective about the issue and you assume others don't know the risks and if you could just educate them they'd change their behavior; you'd be wrong. People willingly take far worse and far less safe drugs off the street just to get high. Those who use prescription drugs like Ritalin off label to enhance work or study performance are not the people you need to be concerned with. Drug use is not drug abuse.
  - GHFigs 17y ago
    Who cares? Really? I would hope that anybody taking "cognitive enhancers" would care. It seems entirely relevant that one should know the difference between normal brain functioning and drug-induced brain functioning. My concern is that there is a trend towards not knowing the difference, and that this is being applauded. You're too concerned about the mechanism rather than the effect. I am specifically talking about the effect. It is different. It is not, in your words, "enhancing your natural cognitive abilities". You cannot honestly argue that it is the same as a natural state of focus while simultaneously claiming that the point is to have unnatural kind of focus. And yes, I regard the distinction between natural and unnatural states as important when it impacts things like (say) competition for top-tier education. That people such as you are so strongly opposed is a sign that you're not objective about the issue I have no idea what this means. You seem to be rejecting the validity of my opinion because it does not agree with yours. That's...deft. People willingly take far worse and far less safe drugs off the street just to get high. Those who use prescription drugs like Ritalin off label to enhance work or study performance are not the people you need to be concerned with. Taking Ritalin to "enhance work or study performance" is getting high. The effect of the drug is the same regardless of whether you take it to study or not. Why have we recently gotten a free pass to class it up by calling it "cognitive enhancement"? People have historically taken all kinds of drugs for performance reasons, be they legal, illegal, or legal but illegally obtained--many to famously great effect. What changed to allow us to use such different terminiology for the same act? What is the effect on our culture of continuing to do so? And why should I not be concerned with changing social norms?