6 ms·

I really really don't want to grammar-nitpick (this looks like an amazing product) but 'less bugs' kind of hints at low quality. If I were you (and I'm not) I w

I really really don't want to grammar-nitpick (this looks like an amazing product) but 'less bugs' kind of hints at low quality. If I were you (and I'm not) I would replace that with 'fewer bugs' or whatever.

dmm 13y ago
Quick! Somebody tell Shakespeare how english grammar works. Shakespeare, Timon of Athens, Act III, scene I FLAMINIUS: ..."Has friendship such a faint and milky heart, It turns in less than two nights? O you gods,"...
- waterlion 13y ago
  I'm not soliciting an argument. But... I would argue that this is consistent because 'two nights' isn't a countable quantity, it's an 'un-countable' period of time. Although you could argue the opposite is true because 'two' does look very much like counting.
  - dmm 13y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less Less has always been used in English with countable nouns.
    - waterlion 13y ago
      It depends what you're trying to achieve. I took pains to say that I wasn't asserting any universal truth about the English language. I'm not taking a position on whether it has or hasn't been used in English or any other language, with or without nouns, countable or otherwise. I gave my perspective about my reaction to reading 'less bugs' and suggested what I would do were I the author (acknowledging as I did it, that I amn't). You might be able to present me with evidence and thereby change my internal grammar (I'm sure everyone except Chomsky has their own individual version), but it might be a few years before those words no longer triggered the same response. I'm game if you are. (Edit: dmm edited his comment to remove the words "Is there any evidence I could present that you would accept?" from this comment's parent. For shame!)
      - dmm 13y ago
        > I gave my perspective about my reaction to reading 'less bugs' and suggested what I would do were I the author You claimed regret in "grammar nitpicking". I claim that saying "less bugs" is perfectly acceptable grammar. I interpreted your original comment as meaning you think "less bugs" is incorrect grammar. Maybe you should have said something like "style nitpicking".
      - dmm 13y ago
        > For shame! You're the one making BS grammar claims and refusing to own up to it when you're called on it.
        waterlion 13y ago
        I haven't made a single grammar claim. I have, quite deliberately, not taken a prescriptive approach. Please quote and prove me wrong. Are you saying that my 'regretting nitpicking' is a grammar claim? It was true when I wrote it and doubly so now. Are you saying that when I wrote 'you could say' that I was making an assertion? "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it," and all that. If everything is black and white to you then I'm not much interested in continuing this conversation. Are you saying that my reference to this as a grammar issue and not one of style is a claim? If so, I suggest you head over to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less and correct all the text and metadata that mentions 'grammar' in the context of that argument.
        dmm 13y ago
        > I really really don't want to grammar-nitpick > I haven't made a single grammar claim. I interpreted you using the word 'grammar' to mean that you were making a grammatical claim. And I was thinking of grammar as binary thing, either right or wrong. I thought of grammar as a set of rules that would determine whether a statement was well-formed. You include in the idea of grammar not only correctness but also judgements like: "less bugs" sounds bad to me and probably isn't appropriate for professional communications. In my mind at the time that sort of statement wouldn't have been a matter of grammar. Maybe spending all day with formal languages and programming gave me that idea. I don't know how to communicate with you. It's hard to do sometimes with just the written word. Sorry for wasting your time.
- ollysb 13y ago
  It's saying that the "turn" happened in an unspecified time but less than two nights. Because the unspecified time period is a continuous variable you can't use fewer (which is used for discrete values).
digz 13y ago
The prevalence of less/fewer errors everywhere is astounding. I saw a national ad on TV the other day with 'less calories' featured prominently. This error was the first thing I noticed on the page as well... but I'm guessing we're in the minority here. All that said, the product is fantastic. Have been using it for a year on an almost daily basis.
- colechristensen 13y ago
  To be fair, 'calories' is a continuous value with an unfortunately discrete-sounding name.
  - chaddeshon 13y ago
    Couldn't you say the same thing about any unit of measure? "Less miles" (Queue LSU Football joke.)
    - mynegation 13y ago
      Well, now since we have gone that way... It's "cue", not "queue"
  - gradys 13y ago
    Less energy, fewer calories. My understanding is that it's not continuousness or discreteness that determines whether "less" or "fewer" is appropriate, but whether the noun the word describes is a "count" noun or a "mass" noun. Mass nouns are just nouns you can't pluralize, but can refer to a multitude of something (you can't own "furnitures"), and count nouns are nouns that only refer to a multitude of things when plural.

dmm 13y ago

Quick! Somebody tell Shakespeare how english grammar works. Shakespeare, Timon of Athens, Act III, scene I FLAMINIUS: ..."Has friendship such a faint and milky heart, It turns in less than two nights? O you gods,"...

waterlion 13y ago
I'm not soliciting an argument. But... I would argue that this is consistent because 'two nights' isn't a countable quantity, it's an 'un-countable' period of time. Although you could argue the opposite is true because 'two' does look very much like counting.
- dmm 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less Less has always been used in English with countable nouns.
  - waterlion 13y ago
    It depends what you're trying to achieve. I took pains to say that I wasn't asserting any universal truth about the English language. I'm not taking a position on whether it has or hasn't been used in English or any other language, with or without nouns, countable or otherwise. I gave my perspective about my reaction to reading 'less bugs' and suggested what I would do were I the author (acknowledging as I did it, that I amn't). You might be able to present me with evidence and thereby change my internal grammar (I'm sure everyone except Chomsky has their own individual version), but it might be a few years before those words no longer triggered the same response. I'm game if you are. (Edit: dmm edited his comment to remove the words "Is there any evidence I could present that you would accept?" from this comment's parent. For shame!)
    - dmm 13y ago
      > I gave my perspective about my reaction to reading 'less bugs' and suggested what I would do were I the author You claimed regret in "grammar nitpicking". I claim that saying "less bugs" is perfectly acceptable grammar. I interpreted your original comment as meaning you think "less bugs" is incorrect grammar. Maybe you should have said something like "style nitpicking".
    - dmm 13y ago
      > For shame! You're the one making BS grammar claims and refusing to own up to it when you're called on it.
      - waterlion 13y ago
        I haven't made a single grammar claim. I have, quite deliberately, not taken a prescriptive approach. Please quote and prove me wrong. Are you saying that my 'regretting nitpicking' is a grammar claim? It was true when I wrote it and doubly so now. Are you saying that when I wrote 'you could say' that I was making an assertion? "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it," and all that. If everything is black and white to you then I'm not much interested in continuing this conversation. Are you saying that my reference to this as a grammar issue and not one of style is a claim? If so, I suggest you head over to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fewer_vs._less and correct all the text and metadata that mentions 'grammar' in the context of that argument.
        dmm 13y ago
        > I really really don't want to grammar-nitpick > I haven't made a single grammar claim. I interpreted you using the word 'grammar' to mean that you were making a grammatical claim. And I was thinking of grammar as binary thing, either right or wrong. I thought of grammar as a set of rules that would determine whether a statement was well-formed. You include in the idea of grammar not only correctness but also judgements like: "less bugs" sounds bad to me and probably isn't appropriate for professional communications. In my mind at the time that sort of statement wouldn't have been a matter of grammar. Maybe spending all day with formal languages and programming gave me that idea. I don't know how to communicate with you. It's hard to do sometimes with just the written word. Sorry for wasting your time.
ollysb 13y ago
It's saying that the "turn" happened in an unspecified time but less than two nights. Because the unspecified time period is a continuous variable you can't use fewer (which is used for discrete values).

digz 13y ago

The prevalence of less/fewer errors everywhere is astounding. I saw a national ad on TV the other day with 'less calories' featured prominently. This error was the first thing I noticed on the page as well... but I'm guessing we're in the minority here. All that said, the product is fantastic. Have been using it for a year on an almost daily basis.

colechristensen 13y ago
To be fair, 'calories' is a continuous value with an unfortunately discrete-sounding name.
- chaddeshon 13y ago
  Couldn't you say the same thing about any unit of measure? "Less miles" (Queue LSU Football joke.)
  - mynegation 13y ago
    Well, now since we have gone that way... It's "cue", not "queue"
- gradys 13y ago
  Less energy, fewer calories. My understanding is that it's not continuousness or discreteness that determines whether "less" or "fewer" is appropriate, but whether the noun the word describes is a "count" noun or a "mass" noun. Mass nouns are just nouns you can't pluralize, but can refer to a multitude of something (you can't own "furnitures"), and count nouns are nouns that only refer to a multitude of things when plural.