4 ms·

The opinions on this topic around here are so depressing given how easy, cheap and healthy it is to live without meat, or dairy, for that matter.

bane 13y ago
> how easy, cheap and healthy it is to live without meat, or dairy, for that matter. Given the volume and nature of advice in the vegan community for how not to hurt yourself eating as a vegan, I would say that "easy" or "healthy" is not a word that could be reasonably associated with a sustained, long-term vegan diet. Even long-term vegans have difficulty in getting complete nutrition on their diet which is offered almost by default in a basic omnivorous diet.
- WalterSear 13y ago
  My doctors would disagree with that. Like I said, it's depressing how much ignorance is thrown around here on this topic.
  - bane 13y ago
    You'd be surprised at how well studied I am on veganism.
    - WalterSear 13y ago
      Yes, considering your comment, I'll be surprised if you know anything about it.
      - bane 13y ago
        We're debating elsewhere in this thread. You tell me. I know the results of many short and long term observational and experimental studies of veganism and several other chosen diets and veganism, and the long-term health outcomes of the diet, do not inspire confidence that the majority population of vegans know almost anything about basic nutrition. In fact I've never even seen a study where less than 50% of any given vegan population were not deficient in something as basic and well understood as B12.
- vlod 13y ago
  >Even long-term vegans have difficulty in getting complete nutrition on their diet which is offered almost by default in a basic omnivorous diet. You over estimate the difficult, yes it's a little more work. Heck you can say the same thing about the current US omnivorous diet. Most omnivores have problem getting sufficient nutrition (in the form of fruits, veg and Vit.D) in their diet. It's not that they can't get it, it's just that they are a little lazy. Tip to Vegans: for B12 put nutritional yeast on your popcorn... kinda tastes like cheese and super nutritious and delicious!
  - WalterSear 13y ago
    Tip to non-vegans: you too, are likely to be running a vitamin B12 deficiency, along with the vitamin D one. Tip to vegans: Hey! I thought you were going to have at least a little popcorn with that.
    - vlod 13y ago
      > Tip to non-vegans: you too, are likely to be running a vitamin B12 deficiency, Thanks for pointing that out and it's really what I meant. My Mrs loves her popcorn this way (although she eats meat).
    - bane 13y ago
      > you too, are likely to be running a vitamin B12 deficiency Citation please? I've looked into this subject pretty intensely over the last decade or so and know of no controlled studies (or even poorly done observational studies) that demonstrate this in the least. The only place I've ever even seen this claim is on vegan advocacy forums as unsubstantiated claims or in studies of nutrition absorption problems as a general factor in the elderly. The amount of animal meat needed for full dietary B12 is actually shockingly small. A few grams a week. And it's water soluble so you just piss out any that's not used. On the contrary I've read several studies that show that in the study populations, up to 92% of the vegans in the population were B12 deficient. In another a little over 50% of vegans were deficient, while less than 10% of vegetarians and a single omnivore were B12 deficient. I know of no studies where the studied, randomly sampled, vegan population was not majority B12 deficient. In other studies that look for it, elevated methylmalonic acid (associated with B12 deficiency) was found in the vast majority (over 80%) of vegans while only 5% of ominivores and 68% of vegetarians. In the same study almost 70% of vegans were diagnosed with Hyperhomocysteinemia (caused by sustained deficiencies in B-vitamin groups or chronic alcoholism) while less than 20% of the omnivores were. The most effective and reliable treatment for Hyperhomocysteinemia is a regular omnivorous diet of meat and eggs with a cure rate of nearly 100%.
toadkick 13y ago
Sure, if taste is not at all a factor. But since we're human beings, it is a factor. It's "easy" unless you are someone who is repulsed completely by the taste of most vegetables. There's nothing "easy" about choking down food that tastes like poison to me. I wish I could flip a switch in my brain and suddenly love vegetables, for more reasons than just potential animal cruelty. But I can't. So it will always be "hard" for me to not eat meat.
- WalterSear 13y ago
  These things look insurmountable from the outset, but tastes and food craving are actually a very malleable, and change based on what you eat - just at a time frame that is too long for us to be aware of: a matter of weeks and months, rather than days. If you genuinely feel bad about what you are doing, I would suggest a two pronged approach: try and incorporate more kinds of vegan foods in your diet over time and educate yourself on a visceral level on the nastiness that is the food industry: watch the videos made inside slaughter houses and feedlots. Having options will make you want those options, and seeing the unhappiness that is actually going into your sausage will make you >feel< differently about the sausage, rather than just knowing that it's wrong. I was vegetarian for 10 years before going vegan (vegan for 10, now), so I'm the last person to point fingers at people taking the slower road. That said, the selections and choices available (at least in western countries) today were inconceivable back when I became vegan ten years ago. It's the promised land! The social part (ie, people being shitty, every dinner conversation revolving around what I just ordered, etc,etc) is always the hardest, still as hard today as it was then. Sure, people are more tolerant of dietary differences, but for the same reasons, they are also more full of dietary scientism (Soy gives you man boobs. Wheat gluten is a radioactive GMO byproduct. By eating locally, no cows were harmed in the creation of this steak.)

bane 13y ago

> how easy, cheap and healthy it is to live without meat, or dairy, for that matter. Given the volume and nature of advice in the vegan community for how not to hurt yourself eating as a vegan, I would say that "easy" or "healthy" is not a word that could be reasonably associated with a sustained, long-term vegan diet. Even long-term vegans have difficulty in getting complete nutrition on their diet which is offered almost by default in a basic omnivorous diet.

WalterSear 13y ago
My doctors would disagree with that. Like I said, it's depressing how much ignorance is thrown around here on this topic.
- bane 13y ago
  You'd be surprised at how well studied I am on veganism.
  - WalterSear 13y ago
    Yes, considering your comment, I'll be surprised if you know anything about it.
    - bane 13y ago
      We're debating elsewhere in this thread. You tell me. I know the results of many short and long term observational and experimental studies of veganism and several other chosen diets and veganism, and the long-term health outcomes of the diet, do not inspire confidence that the majority population of vegans know almost anything about basic nutrition. In fact I've never even seen a study where less than 50% of any given vegan population were not deficient in something as basic and well understood as B12.
vlod 13y ago
>Even long-term vegans have difficulty in getting complete nutrition on their diet which is offered almost by default in a basic omnivorous diet. You over estimate the difficult, yes it's a little more work. Heck you can say the same thing about the current US omnivorous diet. Most omnivores have problem getting sufficient nutrition (in the form of fruits, veg and Vit.D) in their diet. It's not that they can't get it, it's just that they are a little lazy. Tip to Vegans: for B12 put nutritional yeast on your popcorn... kinda tastes like cheese and super nutritious and delicious!
- WalterSear 13y ago
  Tip to non-vegans: you too, are likely to be running a vitamin B12 deficiency, along with the vitamin D one. Tip to vegans: Hey! I thought you were going to have at least a little popcorn with that.
  - vlod 13y ago
    > Tip to non-vegans: you too, are likely to be running a vitamin B12 deficiency, Thanks for pointing that out and it's really what I meant. My Mrs loves her popcorn this way (although she eats meat).
  - bane 13y ago
    > you too, are likely to be running a vitamin B12 deficiency Citation please? I've looked into this subject pretty intensely over the last decade or so and know of no controlled studies (or even poorly done observational studies) that demonstrate this in the least. The only place I've ever even seen this claim is on vegan advocacy forums as unsubstantiated claims or in studies of nutrition absorption problems as a general factor in the elderly. The amount of animal meat needed for full dietary B12 is actually shockingly small. A few grams a week. And it's water soluble so you just piss out any that's not used. On the contrary I've read several studies that show that in the study populations, up to 92% of the vegans in the population were B12 deficient. In another a little over 50% of vegans were deficient, while less than 10% of vegetarians and a single omnivore were B12 deficient. I know of no studies where the studied, randomly sampled, vegan population was not majority B12 deficient. In other studies that look for it, elevated methylmalonic acid (associated with B12 deficiency) was found in the vast majority (over 80%) of vegans while only 5% of ominivores and 68% of vegetarians. In the same study almost 70% of vegans were diagnosed with Hyperhomocysteinemia (caused by sustained deficiencies in B-vitamin groups or chronic alcoholism) while less than 20% of the omnivores were. The most effective and reliable treatment for Hyperhomocysteinemia is a regular omnivorous diet of meat and eggs with a cure rate of nearly 100%.

toadkick 13y ago

Sure, if taste is not at all a factor. But since we're human beings, it is a factor. It's "easy" unless you are someone who is repulsed completely by the taste of most vegetables. There's nothing "easy" about choking down food that tastes like poison to me. I wish I could flip a switch in my brain and suddenly love vegetables, for more reasons than just potential animal cruelty. But I can't. So it will always be "hard" for me to not eat meat.

WalterSear 13y ago
These things look insurmountable from the outset, but tastes and food craving are actually a very malleable, and change based on what you eat - just at a time frame that is too long for us to be aware of: a matter of weeks and months, rather than days. If you genuinely feel bad about what you are doing, I would suggest a two pronged approach: try and incorporate more kinds of vegan foods in your diet over time and educate yourself on a visceral level on the nastiness that is the food industry: watch the videos made inside slaughter houses and feedlots. Having options will make you want those options, and seeing the unhappiness that is actually going into your sausage will make you >feel< differently about the sausage, rather than just knowing that it's wrong. I was vegetarian for 10 years before going vegan (vegan for 10, now), so I'm the last person to point fingers at people taking the slower road. That said, the selections and choices available (at least in western countries) today were inconceivable back when I became vegan ten years ago. It's the promised land! The social part (ie, people being shitty, every dinner conversation revolving around what I just ordered, etc,etc) is always the hardest, still as hard today as it was then. Sure, people are more tolerant of dietary differences, but for the same reasons, they are also more full of dietary scientism (Soy gives you man boobs. Wheat gluten is a radioactive GMO byproduct. By eating locally, no cows were harmed in the creation of this steak.)