11 ms·

In Defense of Starbucks Squatters

8 points by apress 13y ago

michaelochurch 13y ago
Did you just "Kleenex" Starbucks? Starbucks has the wrong ambience for squatting, probably partially by design. Go independent, seriously.
mikeash 13y ago
I don't understand why this whole topic needs anything said beyond, "How long any customer can stay at his table is a matter between him and the property owner."
- PhasmaFelis 13y ago
  Because "you are physically capable of doing something" is not the same as "I support you doing that thing." Try applying your attitude to other issues. "How much of your data the NSA collects is a matter between you and the NSA; public discussion is unnecessary."
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Your support doesn't matter in a transaction between two private entities. Your comparison to the NSA is wrong because that is a government agency, and our government is supposedly of, by, and for the people, thus whatever they do is a matter for all of us. A table at a coffee shop is not. If the coffee shop wants to let me stay, then I can stay. If they want me to leave, then I must go. And that is all that needs to be said, as far as I can tell.
    - PhasmaFelis 13y ago
      Okay. How about: "If Facebook wants to reverse your user privacy settings without warning, that's a matter between you and Facebook." "If the RIAA wants to DMCA your YouTube video because there was a copyrighted song playing on a radio in the background, that's between you and the RIAA." "If Microsoft/EA/Sony/everyone else wants to modify their terms of service to prevent you from suing them for any reason, and require you to agree to those terms to continue using goods and services you've already paid for, that's between you and <insert major tech company here>." Vigorous public debate on corporate policy is clearly in the public interest, whether the issue is big or small. What's so difficult to understand about that?
      - mikeash 13y ago
        Better, but still not quite there IMO. The Facebook example involves third parties in the form of the people who get to see your previously private info. It's not just between you and Facebook. Likewise, the RIAA example involves a third party in the form of YouTube. Finally, the MS/EA/Sony example involves a third party in the form of the courts. Ironically, I think your last two examples are a near-perfect fit for the people trying to argue about coffee shop squatters. They're taking what should be a private interaction between two private entities and attempting to butt in to control that interaction in a way that suits them, much like the hypothetical RIAA is trying to control your interaction with YouTube, or the hypothetical MS/EA/Sony is trying to control your interaction with the courts.
- StevePerkins 13y ago
  [1] If you truly don't care whether or not other people think you're a jerk, then you can ignore most discussion of etiquette and social mores. [2] If you DO participate in such discussions, simply to say that you don't care what other people think, ehh... then you're kind of a jerk. Return to Step 1.
aestra 13y ago
I never understood so called Starbucks Squatters. The local public library is a free resource that is specifically set up for work and study. I spent many hours there when I was a student, well at the school library. It allowed me to focus on my work more. Also how can Starbucks be surprised at this behavior, I think they practically encouraged it by putting in the wifi.
rcavezza 13y ago
I understand his point about the ambient noise. I think more people need to hear about http://coffitivity.com/ http://coffitivity.com/ . I use it from time to time when coding and I think its helpful.
sejje 13y ago
Libraries and bars are two great alternatives, fwiw.
uhno 13y ago
I don't have any strong feelings for or against coffee shop campers, but this article came across as quite self-centered. Perhaps a different approach would be more effective in changing people's opinions. The argument against campers: "Starbucks and other coffee-shop campers just buy one cheap coffee and then take up a table for hours. We drive up the cost of coffee and inconvenience everybody else. We play loud videos and run our power cords across the floor, creating a safety hazard." His argument for campers (in my own words): I'm an intellectual/creative person; I need to work in a coffee shop because research has shown it to increase creativity and output; I need to resist the brainwashed masses and their preconceived notions of acceptable coffee shop behavior. Notice a theme? It's all about him, whereas the argument against campers is about everyone else. He even complains about being expected to clean up after himself (bus his own table). Shouldn't people be expected to act responsibly and clean up after themselves in a public place? He does attempt to give an economic argument (i.e. coffee shops make more money from campers versus if they were to be banned). However, this is pure speculation on his part, and I suspect he is simply stating what he wants to believe is the truth. For example: "I'm quite certain that if camping were banned at that store, the place would be deserted and it would make far less money. In fact, there would be no reason at all to even stay open until midnight. A huge percentage of its revenue comes from student squatters." He has no way of knowing this, offers no supporting evidence beyond speculation, and simply states it as fact because it supports his view.
- MDCore 13y ago
  I agree with your response, it's pretty much the one I wanted to write! I would add that I work very often from coffee shops (and restaurants). In my mind being a good camper is: - Get to know your server/waitron's name's and interests - Become a good "regular". To me that includes not being rude or impatient. Let the non-regulars go first. If things are getting too busy I'll move to a smaller table or even leave. Yes you're a customer, but you're also supporting the staff. - Buy a meal if you're there for long enough that you would need to eat. If I'm spending the day I'll get breakfast at home, coffees at the coffee shop, order lunch, more drinks and head home before the dinner rush. - Tip well. This covers a multitude of sins. Ultimately, let respect for others guide your choices.
robomartin 13y ago
For about a year I had a kayak on top of my car every day. I'd start my day by going to the lake, kayaking to the middle and then floating freely while doing my work and having breakfast. I don't think I have ever been as productive per unit time as when I did that. Coffee shops can't even begin to compare.

8 points by apress 13y ago

Did you just "Kleenex" Starbucks? Starbucks has the wrong ambience for squatting, probably partially by design. Go independent, seriously.

mikeash 13y ago

I don't understand why this whole topic needs anything said beyond, "How long any customer can stay at his table is a matter between him and the property owner."

PhasmaFelis 13y ago
Because "you are physically capable of doing something" is not the same as "I support you doing that thing." Try applying your attitude to other issues. "How much of your data the NSA collects is a matter between you and the NSA; public discussion is unnecessary."
- mikeash 13y ago
  Your support doesn't matter in a transaction between two private entities. Your comparison to the NSA is wrong because that is a government agency, and our government is supposedly of, by, and for the people, thus whatever they do is a matter for all of us. A table at a coffee shop is not. If the coffee shop wants to let me stay, then I can stay. If they want me to leave, then I must go. And that is all that needs to be said, as far as I can tell.
  - PhasmaFelis 13y ago
    Okay. How about: "If Facebook wants to reverse your user privacy settings without warning, that's a matter between you and Facebook." "If the RIAA wants to DMCA your YouTube video because there was a copyrighted song playing on a radio in the background, that's between you and the RIAA." "If Microsoft/EA/Sony/everyone else wants to modify their terms of service to prevent you from suing them for any reason, and require you to agree to those terms to continue using goods and services you've already paid for, that's between you and <insert major tech company here>." Vigorous public debate on corporate policy is clearly in the public interest, whether the issue is big or small. What's so difficult to understand about that?
    - mikeash 13y ago
      Better, but still not quite there IMO. The Facebook example involves third parties in the form of the people who get to see your previously private info. It's not just between you and Facebook. Likewise, the RIAA example involves a third party in the form of YouTube. Finally, the MS/EA/Sony example involves a third party in the form of the courts. Ironically, I think your last two examples are a near-perfect fit for the people trying to argue about coffee shop squatters. They're taking what should be a private interaction between two private entities and attempting to butt in to control that interaction in a way that suits them, much like the hypothetical RIAA is trying to control your interaction with YouTube, or the hypothetical MS/EA/Sony is trying to control your interaction with the courts.
StevePerkins 13y ago
[1] If you truly don't care whether or not other people think you're a jerk, then you can ignore most discussion of etiquette and social mores. [2] If you DO participate in such discussions, simply to say that you don't care what other people think, ehh... then you're kind of a jerk. Return to Step 1.

aestra 13y ago

I never understood so called Starbucks Squatters. The local public library is a free resource that is specifically set up for work and study. I spent many hours there when I was a student, well at the school library. It allowed me to focus on my work more. Also how can Starbucks be surprised at this behavior, I think they practically encouraged it by putting in the wifi.

rcavezza 13y ago

I understand his point about the ambient noise. I think more people need to hear about http://coffitivity.com/ http://coffitivity.com/ . I use it from time to time when coding and I think its helpful.

sejje 13y ago

Libraries and bars are two great alternatives, fwiw.

uhno 13y ago

I don't have any strong feelings for or against coffee shop campers, but this article came across as quite self-centered. Perhaps a different approach would be more effective in changing people's opinions. The argument against campers: "Starbucks and other coffee-shop campers just buy one cheap coffee and then take up a table for hours. We drive up the cost of coffee and inconvenience everybody else. We play loud videos and run our power cords across the floor, creating a safety hazard." His argument for campers (in my own words): I'm an intellectual/creative person; I need to work in a coffee shop because research has shown it to increase creativity and output; I need to resist the brainwashed masses and their preconceived notions of acceptable coffee shop behavior. Notice a theme? It's all about him, whereas the argument against campers is about everyone else. He even complains about being expected to clean up after himself (bus his own table). Shouldn't people be expected to act responsibly and clean up after themselves in a public place? He does attempt to give an economic argument (i.e. coffee shops make more money from campers versus if they were to be banned). However, this is pure speculation on his part, and I suspect he is simply stating what he wants to believe is the truth. For example: "I'm quite certain that if camping were banned at that store, the place would be deserted and it would make far less money. In fact, there would be no reason at all to even stay open until midnight. A huge percentage of its revenue comes from student squatters." He has no way of knowing this, offers no supporting evidence beyond speculation, and simply states it as fact because it supports his view.

MDCore 13y ago
I agree with your response, it's pretty much the one I wanted to write! I would add that I work very often from coffee shops (and restaurants). In my mind being a good camper is: - Get to know your server/waitron's name's and interests - Become a good "regular". To me that includes not being rude or impatient. Let the non-regulars go first. If things are getting too busy I'll move to a smaller table or even leave. Yes you're a customer, but you're also supporting the staff. - Buy a meal if you're there for long enough that you would need to eat. If I'm spending the day I'll get breakfast at home, coffees at the coffee shop, order lunch, more drinks and head home before the dinner rush. - Tip well. This covers a multitude of sins. Ultimately, let respect for others guide your choices.

robomartin 13y ago

For about a year I had a kayak on top of my car every day. I'd start my day by going to the lake, kayaking to the middle and then floating freely while doing my work and having breakfast. I don't think I have ever been as productive per unit time as when I did that. Coffee shops can't even begin to compare.