4 ms·

You're not in college, are you? There's serious demand for "study aids". It's really not a surprise. If you're statistically going to score higher than your

by devin 17y ago

You're not in college, are you? There's serious demand for "study aids". It's really not a surprise. If you're statistically going to score higher than your peers by taking a pill, that's not too far off from hacking. Code optimization for the brain.

mahmud 17y ago
So you're gonna risk your mental health and your brain just to score "higher" than your peers by some arbitrary benchmark? I thought higher education was for learning and self-development, not pushing your body like a machine. If amphetamine use is a mental "hack", then so is cheating or paying someone to do your work; call it crowd-sourcing, or distributed education, but that doesn't lend it any legitimacy.
- jrockway 17y ago
  Indeed. I never saw college as being competitive. Assignments were assigned, I did a good job, I got a good grade. No need for brain hacking or anything like that. (I did find it very boring and generally worthless, so I dropped out to work on something more interesting. The real world is even less competitive -- there is more work to do than there are people available to do it.)
- gnaritas 17y ago
  > So you're gonna risk your mental health and your brain just.. Don't assume it's a risk. The effects of these stimulants are well known and well studied. Taken safely and in proper doses these are not risky drugs. The world is not black and white and learning and self development can be aided by these drugs. It is not cheating. Artificially enhancing your natural cognitive abilities is a trend that is only going to continue to increase as we learn more and more about the brain and how to manipulate it. The body is a machine, and if we learn to make the machine operate better through chemicals, which is inevitable, then we're going to take advantage of that. You won't see people complaining when they're daily regiment of 20 pills lets them live healthy lives well into their 200's. Some people realize this is already happening and are taking advantage of it.
  - GHFigs 17y ago
    The effects are not well-studied for the uses described here. Indication of amphetamines and similar drugs for cognitive enhancement is primarily based on anecdotal evidence and drug company PR in the popular press. Much of what we do know about the supposed benefits is tied in with the already controversial subject of ADHD. In my experience, calling the effects "enhancing your natural cognitive abilities" is extremely inaccurate, as the state of mind created is not one you can achieve naturally. That alone would not be bad, but there is a trend toward ignoring the difference. The risk here is that we recalibrate the world of normal human functioning to the standards of people high on speed.
    - gnaritas 17y ago
      > The effects are not well-studied for the uses described here. That doesn't matter, what matters is the affect and side effects of the drug on people is known. This isn't a roll of the dice on some newly discovered drug where the long terms effects are unknown. > In my experience, calling the effects "enhancing your natural cognitive abilities" is extremely inaccurate, as the state of mind created is not one you can achieve naturally. Not true, people can and do naturally achieve extreme focus and flow, the drug isn't giving you new abilities, it's giving you more of an ability you already have and allowing you to control when you have it. > The risk here is that we recalibrate the world of normal human functioning to the standards of people high on speed. There's nothing wrong with that as long as people are aware of what they're doing and it's reasonably safe to do so. People have always used drugs, people are always going to use drugs, and as the drugs get better and better, more and more people will use them if they find it beneficial to do so.
      - GHFigs 17y ago
        people can and do naturally achieve extreme focus and flow Yes, this is obvious, and I wasn't denying that at all. What is not obvious, and what there is no evidence for, is that these states are the same as what is achieved on stimulants. It is my own experience that they are very distintly different, and I would never refer to the effects of speed as "natural". The very fact that they are achieved in humans without use of stimulants should be a strong indication that the stimulants do not recreate the same effect. Lack of focus is not due to deficiency of Ritalin. it's giving you more of an ability you already have and allowing you to control when you have it. This is exactly what I am saying is not true. Taking speed does not do the same thing to your brain that your brain is ordinarily capable of doing to yourself. When you take speed, you're not making your brain function like one of a smarter person, no matter how much smarter you feel. Cognition is altered, not just enhanced, and I think it is a huge mistake to ignore that. We don't ignore it when talking about cocaine or any other illegal drugs that people report similarly positive effects from. Why are we so willing to ignore that distinction for these drugs? There's nothing wrong with that as long as people are aware of what they're doing and it's reasonably safe to do so. That people believe (as you do) that these drugs merely enhance existing brain function is a sign that people really aren't aware of what they are doing.
- kragen 17y ago
  Amphetamine use doesn't just make you score higher than your peers; it also dramatically enhances retention, reduces distractibility, and reduces creativity. In that sense it's a mental hack.
- devin 17y ago
  I had a pretty good feeling that I'd come back to a comment like this. I was simple articulating why I believe many "hackers", historically the folks we'd call "geeks, are popping pills. It's not completely inconsistent when you consider the culture they're living in. I was not trying to lend any legitimacy to it. That's just putting words in my mouth. Furthermore, arguing about the legitimacy is a completely different matter, and deserves its own thread altogether IMO. I would be with you on amphetamines being illegitimate, a subtle form of cheating. However, what is one man's cheat is simply "clever" or "brilliant" to another. You ought to be prepared to spell out exactly what you mean by "cheating", and in what context, before you try and rail against me for suggesting something as innocuous as I did. Finally, if you think higher education is for 'self-development and learning', then you're either living in the past, or have a naively idealistic view on what the current situation is in colleges across the country. If colleges are about one thing, it's about getting a job. The school I attend is incredibly competitive, and there isn't room for self-development. If you want self-development, you're better off dropping out. 0.02c
tokenadult 17y ago
If you're statistically going to score higher than your peers by taking a pill I agree with you that that is the claim of the people taking the pills, but where are the statistics? How well controlled are studies claiming to show that the pills help normal people? http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html

by devin 17y ago

mahmud 17y ago

So you're gonna risk your mental health and your brain just to score "higher" than your peers by some arbitrary benchmark? I thought higher education was for learning and self-development, not pushing your body like a machine. If amphetamine use is a mental "hack", then so is cheating or paying someone to do your work; call it crowd-sourcing, or distributed education, but that doesn't lend it any legitimacy.

jrockway 17y ago
Indeed. I never saw college as being competitive. Assignments were assigned, I did a good job, I got a good grade. No need for brain hacking or anything like that. (I did find it very boring and generally worthless, so I dropped out to work on something more interesting. The real world is even less competitive -- there is more work to do than there are people available to do it.)
gnaritas 17y ago
> So you're gonna risk your mental health and your brain just.. Don't assume it's a risk. The effects of these stimulants are well known and well studied. Taken safely and in proper doses these are not risky drugs. The world is not black and white and learning and self development can be aided by these drugs. It is not cheating. Artificially enhancing your natural cognitive abilities is a trend that is only going to continue to increase as we learn more and more about the brain and how to manipulate it. The body is a machine, and if we learn to make the machine operate better through chemicals, which is inevitable, then we're going to take advantage of that. You won't see people complaining when they're daily regiment of 20 pills lets them live healthy lives well into their 200's. Some people realize this is already happening and are taking advantage of it.
- GHFigs 17y ago
  The effects are not well-studied for the uses described here. Indication of amphetamines and similar drugs for cognitive enhancement is primarily based on anecdotal evidence and drug company PR in the popular press. Much of what we do know about the supposed benefits is tied in with the already controversial subject of ADHD. In my experience, calling the effects "enhancing your natural cognitive abilities" is extremely inaccurate, as the state of mind created is not one you can achieve naturally. That alone would not be bad, but there is a trend toward ignoring the difference. The risk here is that we recalibrate the world of normal human functioning to the standards of people high on speed.
  - gnaritas 17y ago
    > The effects are not well-studied for the uses described here. That doesn't matter, what matters is the affect and side effects of the drug on people is known. This isn't a roll of the dice on some newly discovered drug where the long terms effects are unknown. > In my experience, calling the effects "enhancing your natural cognitive abilities" is extremely inaccurate, as the state of mind created is not one you can achieve naturally. Not true, people can and do naturally achieve extreme focus and flow, the drug isn't giving you new abilities, it's giving you more of an ability you already have and allowing you to control when you have it. > The risk here is that we recalibrate the world of normal human functioning to the standards of people high on speed. There's nothing wrong with that as long as people are aware of what they're doing and it's reasonably safe to do so. People have always used drugs, people are always going to use drugs, and as the drugs get better and better, more and more people will use them if they find it beneficial to do so.
    - GHFigs 17y ago
      people can and do naturally achieve extreme focus and flow Yes, this is obvious, and I wasn't denying that at all. What is not obvious, and what there is no evidence for, is that these states are the same as what is achieved on stimulants. It is my own experience that they are very distintly different, and I would never refer to the effects of speed as "natural". The very fact that they are achieved in humans without use of stimulants should be a strong indication that the stimulants do not recreate the same effect. Lack of focus is not due to deficiency of Ritalin. it's giving you more of an ability you already have and allowing you to control when you have it. This is exactly what I am saying is not true. Taking speed does not do the same thing to your brain that your brain is ordinarily capable of doing to yourself. When you take speed, you're not making your brain function like one of a smarter person, no matter how much smarter you feel. Cognition is altered, not just enhanced, and I think it is a huge mistake to ignore that. We don't ignore it when talking about cocaine or any other illegal drugs that people report similarly positive effects from. Why are we so willing to ignore that distinction for these drugs? There's nothing wrong with that as long as people are aware of what they're doing and it's reasonably safe to do so. That people believe (as you do) that these drugs merely enhance existing brain function is a sign that people really aren't aware of what they are doing.
kragen 17y ago
Amphetamine use doesn't just make you score higher than your peers; it also dramatically enhances retention, reduces distractibility, and reduces creativity. In that sense it's a mental hack.
devin 17y ago
I had a pretty good feeling that I'd come back to a comment like this. I was simple articulating why I believe many "hackers", historically the folks we'd call "geeks, are popping pills. It's not completely inconsistent when you consider the culture they're living in. I was not trying to lend any legitimacy to it. That's just putting words in my mouth. Furthermore, arguing about the legitimacy is a completely different matter, and deserves its own thread altogether IMO. I would be with you on amphetamines being illegitimate, a subtle form of cheating. However, what is one man's cheat is simply "clever" or "brilliant" to another. You ought to be prepared to spell out exactly what you mean by "cheating", and in what context, before you try and rail against me for suggesting something as innocuous as I did. Finally, if you think higher education is for 'self-development and learning', then you're either living in the past, or have a naively idealistic view on what the current situation is in colleges across the country. If colleges are about one thing, it's about getting a job. The school I attend is incredibly competitive, and there isn't room for self-development. If you want self-development, you're better off dropping out. 0.02c

tokenadult 17y ago

If you're statistically going to score higher than your peers by taking a pill I agree with you that that is the claim of the people taking the pills, but where are the statistics? How well controlled are studies claiming to show that the pills help normal people? http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html