4 ms·

What about men who have financial need? This isn't an academic question. The tech industry is one of the very few left where large numbers of men from diverse

by xiaoma 13y ago

What about men who have financial need? This isn't an academic question. The tech industry is one of the very few left where large numbers of men from diverse backgrounds are doing well. For many who are struggling, it's the best shot they have. Men receive less financial aid for college and graduate with more debt... if they graduate. Women now outnumber men 3 to 2 in current graduating classes in the US. Far more men than women suffer poverty and homelessness. Amazingly, it's common for shelters to refuse single men. Does Hacker School and its sponsor's "need based" help truly discriminate against the very group—poor, non-degreed men—that society treats so callously? The last thing I want to see is women being dismissed or shut out of opportunities purely out of chauvinist ignorance, but when it comes to poverty and need it's almost like our society has empathy only for women and children. Recognizing this doesn't mean becoming blind to the glass ceiling that women often hit at the high-end of the career ladder. Both are problems. This really is an issue where two wrongs don't make a right. Disclaimer: I earned well under $10k living in SF last year and faced some of this pain personally. I overcame the obstacles in my path and am now in a great situation... but I can't help but feel for those I know who aren't.

lclarkmichalek 13y ago
Given that this is for an institution called `Hacker School`, and I have a feeling that your stats aren't P(x | studying CS), I don't really see how this is particularly relevant. The grant isn't give as part of a `help women in financial need` project, it's given as part of a `help increase the proportion of people in the tech industry who are women`.
- belorn 13y ago
  If you want to increase the proportion of people in the tech industry who are women, do out reach, eliminate glass ceilings in management, and sponsor research into industry causes of gender bias. Doing gender discriminations to "counter" gender discriminations is neither a good or effective way. It's lazy, and only causes more harm.
  - sanxiyn 13y ago
    As I understand this is an outreach program, isn't it?
    - belorn 13y ago
      No. An outreach is used to fill in the gap in the services provided by mainstream in order to reach groups who otherwise would not be aware of existing services. A grant system is intended to convince people to join a program which they are aware of, but for economical reasons would not choose. One could argue that by creating "buzz", it has a secondary effect that causes outreach. Secondary effects however are not reliable, and using actually outreach to create outreach is to me a much better way than hoping that buzz create outreach.
  - ceol 13y ago
    What do you think this is if not outreach? Any sort of outreach will be targeted. I can only imagine you would be in those threads complaining about "gender discrimination" because Company X created women-focused programming classes or the like. There's plenty of research into "industry causes of gender bias." This is one of the solutions. You're basically claiming that because this doesn't completely solve the gender divide, it's lazy and worthless. Well, sorry, but that's not how the world works. This is one of many small steps into getting more women interested in programming, which then eliminates the glass ceilings and discrimination. How you and the others in this thread don't see this is just baffling.
    - belorn 13y ago
      Are you defining preferential treatment as outreach? Thats not only a very odd definition, but also creates the idea that glass ceilings is some form of outreach for male leaders. The definition of "Outreach", is an method that are used to fill in the gap in the services provided by mainstream means, to the purpose of reaching groups who otherwise would not be aware of existing services (In this case, education). This doesn't do that. Mozilla mentor program for example is one that does. Compare and see the difference. women-exclusive classes do not work, and are indeed counter-productive. Any research of this has proven this point. When the Sweden government body tried it, it was found to be ineffective, counter-productive (created more separation between sexes), and declared illegal in the last years. Sadly, given the current gender politics, little money has been spent to answer why it failed, as it is easier to simply ignore the fact that it failed. So to reiterate, This is not one of the solutions, its a illusion of an solution that do harm rather than good. It is worthless, because it do not work and causes harm. It is lazy, because other groups has shown (like Mozilla) how to do it right. In the real world, thats how progress work. You discard what is a step backward, and only use what is a step forward. Small step backwards are still backward steps. What is baffling is how people keep disregarding any sense of scientific method. Just because a previous theory is thought to be working, one should not be ignorant to new information.
- monsterix 13y ago
  Uh no it's relevant. I've applied to hacker school in the winter '14 batch; I hope to crack it, fingers crossed! But I don't know how I will live/sustain in New York if I do crack the interviews. I am currently in DC, not been in a job for more than a year. I immigrated to US recently (August '13) burned all my savings to do so. Prior to moving here I was doing a product start-up that failed. Have had too much on the plate so I'm now stuck between a hard rock and a cliff. While applying to Hacker School I was seriously meaning to tick the checkbox for financial aid (but it was disabled because one has to confirm "I am a woman" first). I do believe that women programmers need encouragement and an inclusive environment, but sometimes men need it too.
cdurr 13y ago
If you're a man, you're on your own because you obviously have privilege. Strong empowered wymyn need these grants because patriarchy. /s Women complain about the glass ceiling but they also have the glass cellar which keeps them from going to the bottom. More men may be at the top but they also over-represent the bottom of society and no one talks about that. What Google's doing here is a social engineering experiment. They don't just want equal opportunity, they want equal outcome. Because biological differences of the sexes don't real and every kid deserves a medal for participation. And people wonder why businesses are moving their manufacturing away from America.
- icebraining 13y ago
  And people wonder why businesses are moving their manufacturing away from America They aren't. Manufacturing in the US has been growing steadily since the 70s.
barry-cotter 13y ago
What about men who have financial need? To a first approximation no one cares. Does Hacker School and its sponsor's "need based" help truly discriminate against the very group—poor, non-degreed men—that society treats so callously? Sure, why not? They will receive nothing but praise for making it easier for women to do Hacker School. Put on your cynic's Thinking Hat for a moment. The fundamental question of politics is "Who? Whom?" Who's doing and who's being done to. Feminism is an "in" political movement. It has power and positive pr. Why would any of the companies sponsoring these grants choose to spend their pr dollars less effectively by letting undifferentiated men apply? Some day there will be bursaries for other groups polite society is in favour of helping. If the group is in fact over represented in CS/programming already, say Indians, the justification will be changed and no will say anything. TL;DR All politics is coalition politics. Feminism has positive pr, the closest male equivalent, men's rights are seen as a bunch of bitter, shrill, misogynistic losers. Why waste your PR dollars?
leoedin 13y ago
This is a good comment. It's easy to forget that the proportion of people "above the glass ceiling" is tiny, regardless of gender. Girls outperform boys consistently through school and, as you've said, admissions to university have a significant gender skew. With the decline of many of the more traditional blue collar male-dominated industries, our system is quietly failing a high proportion of boys. It's hard to discuss this stuff without verging dangerously close to the rather toxic "mens rights" movement, but I think there needs to be more recognition that the male dominated glass floored executive club is not just a "boys club", but an "old boys club". It's not particularly welcoming to women, but it's also not particularly welcoming to men from the wrong class or background. Our organisations may have a male dominated executive, but the middle layer is rapidly becoming skewed the opposite way. When we talk about "equal opportunities" only in the context of gender, I think we miss the less obvious inequalities in our industry. Walk into an office of software engineers and it's immediately obvious that there's a significant gender imbalance. What isn't obvious without asking questions is that there's also a significant imbalance in socioeconomic background. I should add that I'm not aiming to detract from efforts to see greater gender equality in our industry. My first comments apply more to broader society than tech, and I'm definitely an advocate for equal opportunities regardless of gender. This challenge is, however, much less black and white than it's sometimes portrayed in the media.
- tomp 13y ago
  > there's also a significant imbalance in socioeconomic background and age, and (probably) also lifestyle.
jnardiello 13y ago
All great points and i personally share your point of view. This isn't the kind of initiatives that will improve anyhow the situation of women in tech, it's just cheap marketing for Google and Hacker School. They are connecting "need-based situations" and gender, which is quite counter-productive as IMHO what women really need now is just fair opportunities. To Hacker School: either you open funds to men (and here i'm talking personally as i applied, don't have savings and don't really know -if accepted- how i will make it - but ehi i'm smart and positive) or you are loosing, at least for me, a HUGE amount of credibility.

by xiaoma 13y ago

lclarkmichalek 13y ago

Given that this is for an institution called `Hacker School`, and I have a feeling that your stats aren't P(x | studying CS), I don't really see how this is particularly relevant. The grant isn't give as part of a `help women in financial need` project, it's given as part of a `help increase the proportion of people in the tech industry who are women`.

belorn 13y ago
If you want to increase the proportion of people in the tech industry who are women, do out reach, eliminate glass ceilings in management, and sponsor research into industry causes of gender bias. Doing gender discriminations to "counter" gender discriminations is neither a good or effective way. It's lazy, and only causes more harm.
- sanxiyn 13y ago
  As I understand this is an outreach program, isn't it?
  - belorn 13y ago
    No. An outreach is used to fill in the gap in the services provided by mainstream in order to reach groups who otherwise would not be aware of existing services. A grant system is intended to convince people to join a program which they are aware of, but for economical reasons would not choose. One could argue that by creating "buzz", it has a secondary effect that causes outreach. Secondary effects however are not reliable, and using actually outreach to create outreach is to me a much better way than hoping that buzz create outreach.
- ceol 13y ago
  What do you think this is if not outreach? Any sort of outreach will be targeted. I can only imagine you would be in those threads complaining about "gender discrimination" because Company X created women-focused programming classes or the like. There's plenty of research into "industry causes of gender bias." This is one of the solutions. You're basically claiming that because this doesn't completely solve the gender divide, it's lazy and worthless. Well, sorry, but that's not how the world works. This is one of many small steps into getting more women interested in programming, which then eliminates the glass ceilings and discrimination. How you and the others in this thread don't see this is just baffling.
  - belorn 13y ago
    Are you defining preferential treatment as outreach? Thats not only a very odd definition, but also creates the idea that glass ceilings is some form of outreach for male leaders. The definition of "Outreach", is an method that are used to fill in the gap in the services provided by mainstream means, to the purpose of reaching groups who otherwise would not be aware of existing services (In this case, education). This doesn't do that. Mozilla mentor program for example is one that does. Compare and see the difference. women-exclusive classes do not work, and are indeed counter-productive. Any research of this has proven this point. When the Sweden government body tried it, it was found to be ineffective, counter-productive (created more separation between sexes), and declared illegal in the last years. Sadly, given the current gender politics, little money has been spent to answer why it failed, as it is easier to simply ignore the fact that it failed. So to reiterate, This is not one of the solutions, its a illusion of an solution that do harm rather than good. It is worthless, because it do not work and causes harm. It is lazy, because other groups has shown (like Mozilla) how to do it right. In the real world, thats how progress work. You discard what is a step backward, and only use what is a step forward. Small step backwards are still backward steps. What is baffling is how people keep disregarding any sense of scientific method. Just because a previous theory is thought to be working, one should not be ignorant to new information.
monsterix 13y ago
Uh no it's relevant. I've applied to hacker school in the winter '14 batch; I hope to crack it, fingers crossed! But I don't know how I will live/sustain in New York if I do crack the interviews. I am currently in DC, not been in a job for more than a year. I immigrated to US recently (August '13) burned all my savings to do so. Prior to moving here I was doing a product start-up that failed. Have had too much on the plate so I'm now stuck between a hard rock and a cliff. While applying to Hacker School I was seriously meaning to tick the checkbox for financial aid (but it was disabled because one has to confirm "I am a woman" first). I do believe that women programmers need encouragement and an inclusive environment, but sometimes men need it too.

cdurr 13y ago

If you're a man, you're on your own because you obviously have privilege. Strong empowered wymyn need these grants because patriarchy. /s Women complain about the glass ceiling but they also have the glass cellar which keeps them from going to the bottom. More men may be at the top but they also over-represent the bottom of society and no one talks about that. What Google's doing here is a social engineering experiment. They don't just want equal opportunity, they want equal outcome. Because biological differences of the sexes don't real and every kid deserves a medal for participation. And people wonder why businesses are moving their manufacturing away from America.

icebraining 13y ago
And people wonder why businesses are moving their manufacturing away from America They aren't. Manufacturing in the US has been growing steadily since the 70s.

barry-cotter 13y ago

What about men who have financial need? To a first approximation no one cares. Does Hacker School and its sponsor's "need based" help truly discriminate against the very group—poor, non-degreed men—that society treats so callously? Sure, why not? They will receive nothing but praise for making it easier for women to do Hacker School. Put on your cynic's Thinking Hat for a moment. The fundamental question of politics is "Who? Whom?" Who's doing and who's being done to. Feminism is an "in" political movement. It has power and positive pr. Why would any of the companies sponsoring these grants choose to spend their pr dollars less effectively by letting undifferentiated men apply? Some day there will be bursaries for other groups polite society is in favour of helping. If the group is in fact over represented in CS/programming already, say Indians, the justification will be changed and no will say anything. TL;DR All politics is coalition politics. Feminism has positive pr, the closest male equivalent, men's rights are seen as a bunch of bitter, shrill, misogynistic losers. Why waste your PR dollars?

leoedin 13y ago

This is a good comment. It's easy to forget that the proportion of people "above the glass ceiling" is tiny, regardless of gender. Girls outperform boys consistently through school and, as you've said, admissions to university have a significant gender skew. With the decline of many of the more traditional blue collar male-dominated industries, our system is quietly failing a high proportion of boys. It's hard to discuss this stuff without verging dangerously close to the rather toxic "mens rights" movement, but I think there needs to be more recognition that the male dominated glass floored executive club is not just a "boys club", but an "old boys club". It's not particularly welcoming to women, but it's also not particularly welcoming to men from the wrong class or background. Our organisations may have a male dominated executive, but the middle layer is rapidly becoming skewed the opposite way. When we talk about "equal opportunities" only in the context of gender, I think we miss the less obvious inequalities in our industry. Walk into an office of software engineers and it's immediately obvious that there's a significant gender imbalance. What isn't obvious without asking questions is that there's also a significant imbalance in socioeconomic background. I should add that I'm not aiming to detract from efforts to see greater gender equality in our industry. My first comments apply more to broader society than tech, and I'm definitely an advocate for equal opportunities regardless of gender. This challenge is, however, much less black and white than it's sometimes portrayed in the media.

tomp 13y ago
> there's also a significant imbalance in socioeconomic background and age, and (probably) also lifestyle.

jnardiello 13y ago

All great points and i personally share your point of view. This isn't the kind of initiatives that will improve anyhow the situation of women in tech, it's just cheap marketing for Google and Hacker School. They are connecting "need-based situations" and gender, which is quite counter-productive as IMHO what women really need now is just fair opportunities. To Hacker School: either you open funds to men (and here i'm talking personally as i applied, don't have savings and don't really know -if accepted- how i will make it - but ehi i'm smart and positive) or you are loosing, at least for me, a HUGE amount of credibility.