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The App store is a big step back for developers as far as healthy rapid iteration practices go. Week-long byzantine review cycles, expensive closed-source tools

The App store is a big step back for developers as far as healthy rapid iteration practices go. Week-long byzantine review cycles, expensive closed-source tools segregated to one platform, a single source for all downloads, inability to beta your product etc. This all set us back considerably with regards to where we are now on the web. For now Apple can get away with this, their lead is massive and the customers are very passionate about their products, but they won't be at the top forever. It "may" be for the better of the consumer, but that's also not clear. The only effect is likely that Apple doesn't offer half-baked apps, which affects only the perception of their store, and doesn't add much value to either consumers or developers.

canweriotnow 13y ago
This. This right here. This is why I detest Apple as a professional developer. The "hacker kids" issue is almost orthogonal, but I can't stand the idea of someone telling me what I can run on a device I purchased.
- anko 13y ago
  nobody complained about this junk when it was nintendo and sega doing it, for a lot more. It's just that this time; 1) people have this illogical apple hatred and 2) people buy into google's spiel about being open. The app store, is a tradeoff. It's some inconvenience for developers in exchange for a trusted, safe marketplace for applications for consumers.
  - BadassFractal 13y ago
    Using examples from late 80s boxed software is absurd, and you also don't know anything about whether developers at the time complained about the restrictions or not. Development practices for the web era are nothing like those of 30 years ago, unless you like to do it wrong.
    - anko 13y ago
      What are you talking about late 80s? it's still happening with consoles today. On XBox, for example, you need a dev kit. They have a lengthy sign up process, they don't allow students or universities to get one, etc. It costs $$$. Yeah development practices have changed, but you also have a choice of platforms. Any platform has tradeoffs and those tradeoffs have an impact on your development process. That's what a platform is. It's an environment, and that environment imposes restrictions. So there is a tradeoff between restrictions to benefits.
  - Mikeb85 13y ago
    > nobody complained about this junk when it was nintendo and sega doing it, for a lot more. I'm sure someone did, but they didn't have the internet to vent their frustrations. > 1) people have this illogical apple hatred I'd say there's valid reasons to dislike Apple's stance on many issues. > 2) people buy into google's spiel about being open. Every OS Google has is open-source - Chrome OS, and Android. Yes, we know they do have services that aren't, and some that require payment, but you can use, fork, and hack on Android or Chromium if you want to. Is Google a 100% open source company? No. I would personally prefer Firefox OS and Ubuntu become the major smartphone players, but Google is better than Apple or MS. > The app store, is a tradeoff. It's some inconvenience for developers in exchange for a trusted, safe marketplace for applications for consumers. It's not about the app store. It's about restrictions on side-loading your own app onto a device you own. With an Android device, I can test my own apps without having to sign up for anything. I hear Firefox OS is just as open, and they make it very easy to test out your HTML5 apps (even without it being hosted on a website).
    - anko 13y ago
      This is a late reply, but just in case you read it. > I'd say there's valid reasons to dislike Apple's stance on many issues. That's not apple hatred, and it's not what I'm talking about. > Every OS Google has is open-source - Chrome OS, and Android. Yes, we know they do have services that aren't, and some that require payment, but you can use, fork, and hack on Android or Chromium if you want to. Read this: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-.... I don't know what your argument is, but also consider that apple has an opensource core to their OS too - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system). But they have a closed source shell on top of that? So does android. > Google is better than Apple or MS. This is what i'm talking about when I say illogical apple hatred. Google is not better than Apple or MS. > It's not about the app store. It's about restrictions on side-loading your own app onto a device you own If people could sideload anything on their devices, it would break trust in the platform. Apple want a platform that people trust, and most people want that too. It's not fundamentally wrong to be different, but just understand that you're a minority on this planet and that people who don't want to sideload apps are the majority.
sjwright 13y ago
> The App store is a big step back for developers It's definitely a big step forward for consumers. Apps in the store have been reviewed by an authority prior to release, they must follow guidelines to (as much as possible) ensure compatibility and protect my privacy, and they are sandboxed to protect my private data and the device's integrity. You might not appreciate the difference, but it means I can confidently hand an iPhone or iPad to anyone -- tech savvy or otherwise -- and let them loose without being concerned about what they're downloading or installing. Gone are the days where I set up computers for family members and end up full of malware and spyware within a couple of months. That is HUGE.
tzs 13y ago
Why would the speed of App Store review affect rapid iteration? You distribute test versions during iterative development directly to testers. The App Store is for release versions.
- BadassFractal 13y ago
  Modern day web companies push changes into production dozens of times a day, if not more often (see the illustrious etsy example). We have continuous integration and delivery for that reason. Having to wait a week for something to make it into production or to fix a bug is no longer acceptable.
  - tzs 13y ago
    Apps are not web sites. Consumers expect a higher level of stability and quality from their apps than they do from web sites.
- chj 13y ago
  Apple's reviewer aren't able to do in depth testing. They just make sure the app doesn't crash on launch, and the app doesn't use some kind of payment that by passes the app store. As simple as it is, this test takes at least one week. For critical bug fixes, it is simply unacceptable.

canweriotnow 13y ago

This. This right here. This is why I detest Apple as a professional developer. The "hacker kids" issue is almost orthogonal, but I can't stand the idea of someone telling me what I can run on a device I purchased.

anko 13y ago
nobody complained about this junk when it was nintendo and sega doing it, for a lot more. It's just that this time; 1) people have this illogical apple hatred and 2) people buy into google's spiel about being open. The app store, is a tradeoff. It's some inconvenience for developers in exchange for a trusted, safe marketplace for applications for consumers.
- BadassFractal 13y ago
  Using examples from late 80s boxed software is absurd, and you also don't know anything about whether developers at the time complained about the restrictions or not. Development practices for the web era are nothing like those of 30 years ago, unless you like to do it wrong.
  - anko 13y ago
    What are you talking about late 80s? it's still happening with consoles today. On XBox, for example, you need a dev kit. They have a lengthy sign up process, they don't allow students or universities to get one, etc. It costs $$$. Yeah development practices have changed, but you also have a choice of platforms. Any platform has tradeoffs and those tradeoffs have an impact on your development process. That's what a platform is. It's an environment, and that environment imposes restrictions. So there is a tradeoff between restrictions to benefits.
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  > nobody complained about this junk when it was nintendo and sega doing it, for a lot more. I'm sure someone did, but they didn't have the internet to vent their frustrations. > 1) people have this illogical apple hatred I'd say there's valid reasons to dislike Apple's stance on many issues. > 2) people buy into google's spiel about being open. Every OS Google has is open-source - Chrome OS, and Android. Yes, we know they do have services that aren't, and some that require payment, but you can use, fork, and hack on Android or Chromium if you want to. Is Google a 100% open source company? No. I would personally prefer Firefox OS and Ubuntu become the major smartphone players, but Google is better than Apple or MS. > The app store, is a tradeoff. It's some inconvenience for developers in exchange for a trusted, safe marketplace for applications for consumers. It's not about the app store. It's about restrictions on side-loading your own app onto a device you own. With an Android device, I can test my own apps without having to sign up for anything. I hear Firefox OS is just as open, and they make it very easy to test out your HTML5 apps (even without it being hosted on a website).
  - anko 13y ago
    This is a late reply, but just in case you read it. > I'd say there's valid reasons to dislike Apple's stance on many issues. That's not apple hatred, and it's not what I'm talking about. > Every OS Google has is open-source - Chrome OS, and Android. Yes, we know they do have services that aren't, and some that require payment, but you can use, fork, and hack on Android or Chromium if you want to. Read this: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-.... I don't know what your argument is, but also consider that apple has an opensource core to their OS too - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system). But they have a closed source shell on top of that? So does android. > Google is better than Apple or MS. This is what i'm talking about when I say illogical apple hatred. Google is not better than Apple or MS. > It's not about the app store. It's about restrictions on side-loading your own app onto a device you own If people could sideload anything on their devices, it would break trust in the platform. Apple want a platform that people trust, and most people want that too. It's not fundamentally wrong to be different, but just understand that you're a minority on this planet and that people who don't want to sideload apps are the majority.

sjwright 13y ago

> The App store is a big step back for developers It's definitely a big step forward for consumers. Apps in the store have been reviewed by an authority prior to release, they must follow guidelines to (as much as possible) ensure compatibility and protect my privacy, and they are sandboxed to protect my private data and the device's integrity. You might not appreciate the difference, but it means I can confidently hand an iPhone or iPad to anyone -- tech savvy or otherwise -- and let them loose without being concerned about what they're downloading or installing. Gone are the days where I set up computers for family members and end up full of malware and spyware within a couple of months. That is HUGE.

tzs 13y ago

Why would the speed of App Store review affect rapid iteration? You distribute test versions during iterative development directly to testers. The App Store is for release versions.

BadassFractal 13y ago
Modern day web companies push changes into production dozens of times a day, if not more often (see the illustrious etsy example). We have continuous integration and delivery for that reason. Having to wait a week for something to make it into production or to fix a bug is no longer acceptable.
- tzs 13y ago
  Apps are not web sites. Consumers expect a higher level of stability and quality from their apps than they do from web sites.
chj 13y ago
Apple's reviewer aren't able to do in depth testing. They just make sure the app doesn't crash on launch, and the app doesn't use some kind of payment that by passes the app store. As simple as it is, this test takes at least one week. For critical bug fixes, it is simply unacceptable.