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So is it a question of OS integration, then? At some point these technologies get borged by the OS kernel, and we end up with these features operating as first

by nsxwolf 13y ago

So is it a question of OS integration, then? At some point these technologies get borged by the OS kernel, and we end up with these features operating as first class citizens. It's hard work, so should we surprised that things start as add-on applications first? Aren't we in the process of achieving a lot of these goals in a pretty clean way? There was a lot of code to write to get to this point.

vidarh 13y ago
We are "in the process of achieving" a whole lot of things we had 30 or 40 years ago, but that never made it into the mainstream OS's of today. E.g. my favorite pet peeve is how many things from AmigaOS "disappeared" when AmigaOS got relegated to a steadily shrinking niche with the death of Commodore. And this is just one of many "forgotten" operating systems with features that have been left behind. Consider pervasive scripting of applications (yes, I know about Apple Script, but having spent 5 years in an office full of Mac users, I've yet to see anyone use it; on the Amiga AREXX was something almost everyone used in some form or another; and no, shell scripting is not comparable); consider componentized systems where users regularly install new components that enhance "all" their applications (e.g. need support for 7z? on the Amiga you'd install a new XPK library if you want to support a new compression algorithm, and all programs that want to compress data will support it; need support for an archival format? Install the right XAD library; want your paint program to read WebP? Install a suitable DataType library, and any application that knows how to use DataTypes to load images will be able to load it); consider if end users can replace dialog boxes or other GUI components wholesale in almost all their applications - AmigaOS has a few different alternatives: ARP, ASL and ReqTools that provide things like file-requesters. Because of the nature of AmigaOS, there were quickly apps that would act as shims from e.g. ASL to ReqTools, allowing users to pick and choose the file requester they want without relying on application developers choices. We took giant steps back when Windows snuffed out most of the competition and with it a huge amount of innovative ideas that current mainstream computer users have never even experienced. Even the stuff that made it into systems like AmigaOS and many others in the 80's to early 90's were mere shades of many of the visions coming out of the 60's and 70's, but the features in OS's like AmigaOS, OS/2, BeOS and many others were there - many of them are not hard work, but a matter of culture and support for the ideas.
- hobs 13y ago
  Note on (maybe) the why not applescript, its hairy as hell to debug once it gets to a certain level of complexity. (In my experience) I would rather debug shell scripts all day, which I also dont love.
- xerophtye 13y ago
  Ok so let me get this straight, the application software used components available in the OS for different stuff instead of each application being a walled garden, having its own implementations of everything. So by upgrading/modifying the OS components, you essentially upgrade/modify the applications? Sounds cool. Can applications use each others modules? Maybe not directly, but what if installing an application provides an alternative component to the OS component and other applications can use that? Or is that just the same thing as downloading a new OS component? All this stuff sounds pretty cool! And can't we make linux like that? (no hope for windows)
  - atrus 13y ago
    It feels similar to Android intent system. If I want to scan a barcode, an app sends a message to the system asking if anyone can do it. The app doesn't have to build that functionality, nor does it have to be provided by Android itself. Same with sharing other types of data, installing new apps will automatically appear if they provide the functionality that another app asks for.
  - DerekL 13y ago
    Actually, Windows and Macintosh already do that, at least for image, audio and video files. You install a codec, and then all properly-written applications can read and write files in that format.
- ksrm 13y ago
  I thought the BeOS translation kit was a brilliant idea. I didn't know the idea went back to AmigaOS.

by nsxwolf 13y ago

vidarh 13y ago

We are "in the process of achieving" a whole lot of things we had 30 or 40 years ago, but that never made it into the mainstream OS's of today. E.g. my favorite pet peeve is how many things from AmigaOS "disappeared" when AmigaOS got relegated to a steadily shrinking niche with the death of Commodore. And this is just one of many "forgotten" operating systems with features that have been left behind. Consider pervasive scripting of applications (yes, I know about Apple Script, but having spent 5 years in an office full of Mac users, I've yet to see anyone use it; on the Amiga AREXX was something almost everyone used in some form or another; and no, shell scripting is not comparable); consider componentized systems where users regularly install new components that enhance "all" their applications (e.g. need support for 7z? on the Amiga you'd install a new XPK library if you want to support a new compression algorithm, and all programs that want to compress data will support it; need support for an archival format? Install the right XAD library; want your paint program to read WebP? Install a suitable DataType library, and any application that knows how to use DataTypes to load images will be able to load it); consider if end users can replace dialog boxes or other GUI components wholesale in almost all their applications - AmigaOS has a few different alternatives: ARP, ASL and ReqTools that provide things like file-requesters. Because of the nature of AmigaOS, there were quickly apps that would act as shims from e.g. ASL to ReqTools, allowing users to pick and choose the file requester they want without relying on application developers choices. We took giant steps back when Windows snuffed out most of the competition and with it a huge amount of innovative ideas that current mainstream computer users have never even experienced. Even the stuff that made it into systems like AmigaOS and many others in the 80's to early 90's were mere shades of many of the visions coming out of the 60's and 70's, but the features in OS's like AmigaOS, OS/2, BeOS and many others were there - many of them are not hard work, but a matter of culture and support for the ideas.

hobs 13y ago
Note on (maybe) the why not applescript, its hairy as hell to debug once it gets to a certain level of complexity. (In my experience) I would rather debug shell scripts all day, which I also dont love.
xerophtye 13y ago
Ok so let me get this straight, the application software used components available in the OS for different stuff instead of each application being a walled garden, having its own implementations of everything. So by upgrading/modifying the OS components, you essentially upgrade/modify the applications? Sounds cool. Can applications use each others modules? Maybe not directly, but what if installing an application provides an alternative component to the OS component and other applications can use that? Or is that just the same thing as downloading a new OS component? All this stuff sounds pretty cool! And can't we make linux like that? (no hope for windows)
- atrus 13y ago
  It feels similar to Android intent system. If I want to scan a barcode, an app sends a message to the system asking if anyone can do it. The app doesn't have to build that functionality, nor does it have to be provided by Android itself. Same with sharing other types of data, installing new apps will automatically appear if they provide the functionality that another app asks for.
- DerekL 13y ago
  Actually, Windows and Macintosh already do that, at least for image, audio and video files. You install a codec, and then all properly-written applications can read and write files in that format.
ksrm 13y ago
I thought the BeOS translation kit was a brilliant idea. I didn't know the idea went back to AmigaOS.