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A lot of people's jobs in the military is to come up with plans like these. The point is that we're not actually doing them most of the time. The fact that a U

by rtpg 13y ago

A lot of people's jobs in the military is to come up with plans like these. The point is that we're not actually doing them most of the time. The fact that a US senator once proposed a false flag does not make this official US policy. If we had to take everything every member of congress said as scripture, we'd have bombed every country in the world by now. There are a lot of disturbing stuff in this list, but the false equivalency between putting a weapon down next to an afghan civilian after being (most likely) accidentally killed (despicable, but not always likely they went in with a plan to kill civilians) and actively killing your own people just so you can say it was some militants (an actual campaign involving planning and whatnot) is preposterous Creating a fake terrorist organisation to mess with the heads of the real ones doesn't seem like an issue in itself, and there's a pretty big line to cross between fake training camps and real bombs. Also, the notion that a country is funding terrorism in another country is not exactly a novel one. It's unfortunate because there are a lot of real issues, but some people who cover these issues try so hard to find all these issues with US policy (of which there are many), that they try to equate some offhand remark of a senator with years-long operations involving framing and murdering innocents with express political goals. >As reported by BBC, the New York Times, and Associated Press, Macedonian officials admit that the government murdered 7 innocent immigrants in cold blood and pretended that they were Al Qaeda soldiers attempting to assassinate Macedonian police, in order to join the “war on terror”. This one is beyond bizarre.

MichaelGG 13y ago
>The point is that we're not actually doing them most of the time. I agree, but is that really knowable? By definition, the successfully done ones aren't known, right? Not that it's a reason to dive into conspiracy theories.
- rtpg 13y ago
  I'm maybe too much of an optimist , but I've always felt like we're(Americans) a bit less realpolitik than the rest of the world, and that if it were to come to shooting Americans for political gain, somebody would say something. I think the biggest proof is in the Snowden revelations, american politicians seem to be the only ones complaining about their own country's systems. We seem to have a good culture of protecting government institutions above politics, even if our politics end up being pretty shitty anyways. Other countries are loud about the leaks, but only to hit on other countries. I've heard nobody in France complain about the DGSE's complete unfettered usage of everyone's data. I'm also of the opinion that there are enough incompetent people in every part of the government that we'd somehow end up hearing about it anyways.
  - pradocchia 13y ago
    > I'm maybe too much of an optimist , but I've always felt like we're(Americans) a bit less realpolitik than the rest of the world, and that if it were to come to shooting Americans for political gain, somebody would say something. Spend some time consuming foreign-language media. You'll find the same hard-nosed realpolitik narrative on foreign governments, mixed with a much more sympathetic treatment of the domestic government. This has the same effect: "we" are sincere, "they" are nefarious, "we" are straightforward, "they" are untrustworthy, "we" are working for the greater good, "they" are working for their own advantage, etc.
    - rtpg 13y ago
      At least in France, I've found that people are a lot more accepting of realpolitik from the french state. The limited time I spent talking to people in Japan about politics makes it seem like nobody can be an idealist about the japanese gov't with all the wheeling and dealing that happens there. I'm not saying that the US is some shining standard of gov't, but that the citizens seem to care a lot more about their ideals than in some other countries, sometimes at the cost of seemingly sound things (healthcare, gun rights, whatever).
      - waps 13y ago
        I think the US government is partly such a big target for criticism (constructive and otherwise) exactly because Americans are such navel gazers. Conspiracy theories, and flat-out badmouthing the government happens in every country I've been in (and generally the government is far worse than the US one in at least some ways), but they never get traction. It's different in the US. The cynic in me would say that it's quite exceptional for the US to not have the "main" news organization to be state-controlled. And not conspiracy-theorist-style state controlled, actually state controlled. It is blatantly obvious that the BBC asks for permission before running government corruption stories for example. Hell, they even ask for permission before running corruption stories about the US government. But in nearly all of Europe, there is zero doubt that the main news providers are 100% state controlled : the BBC, Nederland 1/2/3 (the Netherlands), VRT (Belgium), France 1/2/3 (France), ... Nobody's even trying to hide that fact.

by rtpg 13y ago

MichaelGG 13y ago

>The point is that we're not actually doing them most of the time. I agree, but is that really knowable? By definition, the successfully done ones aren't known, right? Not that it's a reason to dive into conspiracy theories.

rtpg 13y ago
I'm maybe too much of an optimist , but I've always felt like we're(Americans) a bit less realpolitik than the rest of the world, and that if it were to come to shooting Americans for political gain, somebody would say something. I think the biggest proof is in the Snowden revelations, american politicians seem to be the only ones complaining about their own country's systems. We seem to have a good culture of protecting government institutions above politics, even if our politics end up being pretty shitty anyways. Other countries are loud about the leaks, but only to hit on other countries. I've heard nobody in France complain about the DGSE's complete unfettered usage of everyone's data. I'm also of the opinion that there are enough incompetent people in every part of the government that we'd somehow end up hearing about it anyways.
- pradocchia 13y ago
  > I'm maybe too much of an optimist , but I've always felt like we're(Americans) a bit less realpolitik than the rest of the world, and that if it were to come to shooting Americans for political gain, somebody would say something. Spend some time consuming foreign-language media. You'll find the same hard-nosed realpolitik narrative on foreign governments, mixed with a much more sympathetic treatment of the domestic government. This has the same effect: "we" are sincere, "they" are nefarious, "we" are straightforward, "they" are untrustworthy, "we" are working for the greater good, "they" are working for their own advantage, etc.
  - rtpg 13y ago
    At least in France, I've found that people are a lot more accepting of realpolitik from the french state. The limited time I spent talking to people in Japan about politics makes it seem like nobody can be an idealist about the japanese gov't with all the wheeling and dealing that happens there. I'm not saying that the US is some shining standard of gov't, but that the citizens seem to care a lot more about their ideals than in some other countries, sometimes at the cost of seemingly sound things (healthcare, gun rights, whatever).
    - waps 13y ago
      I think the US government is partly such a big target for criticism (constructive and otherwise) exactly because Americans are such navel gazers. Conspiracy theories, and flat-out badmouthing the government happens in every country I've been in (and generally the government is far worse than the US one in at least some ways), but they never get traction. It's different in the US. The cynic in me would say that it's quite exceptional for the US to not have the "main" news organization to be state-controlled. And not conspiracy-theorist-style state controlled, actually state controlled. It is blatantly obvious that the BBC asks for permission before running government corruption stories for example. Hell, they even ask for permission before running corruption stories about the US government. But in nearly all of Europe, there is zero doubt that the main news providers are 100% state controlled : the BBC, Nederland 1/2/3 (the Netherlands), VRT (Belgium), France 1/2/3 (France), ... Nobody's even trying to hide that fact.