4 ms·

Call me a cynic, but I'm really indifferent to this entire "everyone should learn to code" nonsense. There are so many mistruths that Code.org is spreading that

by kunai 13y ago

Call me a cynic, but I'm really indifferent to this entire "everyone should learn to code" nonsense. There are so many mistruths that Code.org is spreading that it's shameful. Let's get down to the biggest one: that with a "little bit of math and science" you can build the latest video game or write an app. Buzzer #1. It doesn't take just "a little bit" of math. It takes a TON of math. Reading CLRS took me a month to master, and that was already with a background in elementary calculus using the infinitesimal approach. I'm reading Knuth's seminal "Art of," and I can immediately say that it would be absolute hell for anyone without an advanced mathematics background. That brings us to mistruth #2: that somehow, learning to "code" will help younger people build tomorrow. That's utter bull. Learning to code will only lead to worse code: uglier, crappier, and less elegant and efficient code. Github will become a junk pile. Instead of coding, we need to teach students the programming part of computer science. Get a copy of Algorithms into every CS course and get rid of all of the silicon in the classroom. Trust me, people will learn much more meaningful things about problem-solving that way. Isn't that what writing code really sets out to do? You know, SOLVE PROBLEMS? Just code is NOT going to help that at ALL. Then there's problem number 3, and probably the largest one: it assumes that programming is something we need EVERYONE to learn. EVERYONE. Yes, that is Code.org's goal. EVERYONE SHOULD CODE. You know what, fuck it and let's teach EVERYONE TO BE A MECHANIC. Right? Why the hell not? It's like programming. Only that nobody in their right minds would tell people to make mechanical engineering a part of the curriculum. But people insist on doing the same for CS, as if it's any different. I could go on about this for days. But forget it, Atwood's explained it far better than I ever could. –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– originally posted in the original discussion located here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6873136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6873136

VLM 13y ago
"Only that nobody in their right minds would tell people to make mechanical engineering a part of the curriculum" At the elementary school level, my kids attend a psuedo-STEM school and sadly you're not too far off the mark. Its pretty much that and civil. Civil is actually a good one for kids. Give them a beach and some water buckets and shovels and they're happy for days if not weeks. Some clay and dirt works even better although filthier. Its pretty much outdoors only due to the mess, so the kids are stuck with a mostly MechEng STEM
- walshemj 13y ago
  Do US schools not have "shop" class that teaches this I certainly did wood and metalwork and technical drawing at my UK school.
  - VLM 13y ago
    Not exactly. Those used to focus on "actually doing stuff" and tradesman type careers, which about half the grads eventually end up doing after dropping out of super expensive university. Socially that has an incredible negative opinion over the past few years (lots of marketing by the .edu and banking complex to spend more on schooling). So between irrational hatred of the trades and liability costs and/or insurance, shops have been mostly although not entirely removed. Drafting is still borderline acceptable because its assumed you'll be an engineer and obviously the training you get in autocad 2003 at school will be about as useful on the job in 2023 as my experience with Bank Street Writer when I use vim today (In other words zero if not negative) The STEM fad is less oriented toward practical tradesman type stuff and more toward physical learning... we're doin' it "engineering style" if we build bridges outta lego for fun time instead of playing dodgeball or having a spelling bee. The fad is burning out... An inductive proof of all .edu fads, or all fads in general, is something like generation zero was real STEM, but n+1 was 95% of what passed for STEM in generation n and 5% whatever we used to do. Once generation n gets to a high enough number you end up doing whatever you feel like. Comes from not having a real definition, along with everyone loves a popular label, so kindergarteners attend STEM schools meaning ... um what?
    - walshemj 13y ago
      Well learning the basics of technical drawing isometric views etc is till useful whether you use a pencil or auto cad.
platz 13y ago
And yet the vast majority of programming jobs do not require knowing CLRS and Knuth. Let's not confuse theoretical with practical knowledge.

by kunai 13y ago

VLM 13y ago

"Only that nobody in their right minds would tell people to make mechanical engineering a part of the curriculum" At the elementary school level, my kids attend a psuedo-STEM school and sadly you're not too far off the mark. Its pretty much that and civil. Civil is actually a good one for kids. Give them a beach and some water buckets and shovels and they're happy for days if not weeks. Some clay and dirt works even better although filthier. Its pretty much outdoors only due to the mess, so the kids are stuck with a mostly MechEng STEM

walshemj 13y ago
Do US schools not have "shop" class that teaches this I certainly did wood and metalwork and technical drawing at my UK school.
- VLM 13y ago
  Not exactly. Those used to focus on "actually doing stuff" and tradesman type careers, which about half the grads eventually end up doing after dropping out of super expensive university. Socially that has an incredible negative opinion over the past few years (lots of marketing by the .edu and banking complex to spend more on schooling). So between irrational hatred of the trades and liability costs and/or insurance, shops have been mostly although not entirely removed. Drafting is still borderline acceptable because its assumed you'll be an engineer and obviously the training you get in autocad 2003 at school will be about as useful on the job in 2023 as my experience with Bank Street Writer when I use vim today (In other words zero if not negative) The STEM fad is less oriented toward practical tradesman type stuff and more toward physical learning... we're doin' it "engineering style" if we build bridges outta lego for fun time instead of playing dodgeball or having a spelling bee. The fad is burning out... An inductive proof of all .edu fads, or all fads in general, is something like generation zero was real STEM, but n+1 was 95% of what passed for STEM in generation n and 5% whatever we used to do. Once generation n gets to a high enough number you end up doing whatever you feel like. Comes from not having a real definition, along with everyone loves a popular label, so kindergarteners attend STEM schools meaning ... um what?
  - walshemj 13y ago
    Well learning the basics of technical drawing isometric views etc is till useful whether you use a pencil or auto cad.

platz 13y ago

And yet the vast majority of programming jobs do not require knowing CLRS and Knuth. Let's not confuse theoretical with practical knowledge.