5 ms·

How long until the stolen lives of bicyclists are treated with the same respect as pedestrians and drivers? A 'police car' hits a person, not the person drivin

How long until the stolen lives of bicyclists are treated with the same respect as pedestrians and drivers? A 'police car' hits a person, not the person driving the vehicle? The police officer's injuries detailed, yet no actual details of the accident of quotes from witnesses? Lets see if charges are pressed for this potential vehicular manslaughter... or even a criminal investigation! You know it would be if this were a pedestrian or other driver. My law-abiding friend, during a group ride in the bike lane, was struck and killed last month on Highway 1. The cops let the driver off, his illegal speeding and loss of control of his vehicle being simply 'an accident.' So, who wants to bet this cop will face charges?

aroch 13y ago
How long until the stolen lives of bicyclists are treated with the same respect as pedestrians and drivers? How long until bicyclists stop pretending that traffic rules don't apply to them? Or that they don't get to pick and choose when they're vehicles and when they're pedestrians -- if they're on the road, they're a vehicle? Or that, they too, have to come to a stop at a red light or stop sign? Or that they also have to respect pedestrians in crosswalks and can't just barrel through them?
- ASpring 13y ago
  You're attempting to say that because a subset of cyclists don't obey traffic rules therefore it's okay to not treat cyclists who are killed in traffic accidents as human beings. Stunning work.
  - aroch 13y ago
    That isn't at all what I'm "attempting" to say. If the GP wants to complain about the law not being "enforced" to punish the cop perhaps they should complain about the lack of enforcement on cyclists too
    - mikeash 13y ago
      Why? Where is the rule that says you must complain about all bad things at once?
    - hack_edu 13y ago
      Let me know when a cyclist last killed a cop and lets talk about who got charged what. Also, you still are equating Failure to Stop's (which sure, could maybe someday cause some sort of fatal whatever someday whenever)... with the actual, real, actual loss of life. Insultingly vile.
      - aroch 13y ago
        Hey look, a recent example of a bicyclist not only injuring but killing a pedestrian because they chose not to obey the law. http://blogs.kqed.org/newsfix/2013/08/15/107079/Chris-Bucchere-Sutchi-Hui-bicyclist-pedestrian http://blogs.kqed.org/newsfix/2013/08/15/107079/Chris-Bucche... I hate the pedantic bullshit of elitist cyclists like yourself
        hack_edu 13y ago
        Just to close this out, out of respect for the lives of Milton, the cop, Josh all others cited above... I'm not really a cyclist. I like it, its fun, and I ride safe on the handful of rides I have each year. But I might be a pedantic little shit. ;)
        crystaln 13y ago
        You're not a pedantic little shit. You're arguing with a jerk. Equating cyclists running stop signs to drivers killing cyclists in bike lanes is ridiculous, especially given that the cyclist in the example pled guilty to homicide and drivers are - literally - never prosecuted for killing cyclists. Don't be so quick to demean yourself in the face of asinine attacks.
        darkarmani 13y ago
        > pleading guilty to felony vehicular manslaughter and avoiding a jury trial that could have sent him to prison if he were convicted. So we'll see this cop sentenced to vehicular manslaughter? Let's see if that happens. I'd love to be wrong.
  - sukuriant 13y ago
    I think he was raging at the cyclists that don't obey the rules of the road, not cyclists in general. I know I can separate the two out in my mind. For example: when a bike is curb-hopping and ignoring stoplights, I become frustrated at their wanton disregard for their own safety. When I see a bike riding on the side of the road in their lane, focused and stopping at lights, I don't complain and comfortably wait until there's space for me to pass him with a wide berth and then do so. It's the same with pedestrians. I don't get upset if they're walking on the road. I get angry because I'm scared for their safety when they think it's okay to j-walk across 6 lanes of traffic in rush hour at night while wearing black because "I'm a pedestrian and if you hit me, I'll sue." No. If I hit you, you'll probably die because I'm a ton and a half of metal and you're 150 pounds of water and carbon. Cars are big and they are very dangerous. I may love my car and I love driving it. I love biking and I love walking as well and in some places in the world, we've designed it so that all of these activities can be done in close proximity with relatively high safety and everyone needs to do their part to keep it a safe environment. When cars don't respect bikers, people get hurt. When bikes don't respect cars and predictability (by staying in their lane, going WITH traffic, stopping at traffic lights, or staying on the sidewalk, etc), people get hurt. When pedestrians think they're God and don't pay attention to cars OR bikes, people get hurt. I have no idea what happened in this single instance that the article itself is talking about; but frustration with a certain kind of biker does not automatically result in believing "it's okay to not treat cyclists who are killed in traffic accidents as human beings".
    - ASpring 13y ago
      Thank you for the well thought out reply and I'll admit and apologize that the previous reply was snarky with a bit of anger. However, it suffices to say that using a thread lamenting the death of a cyclist for venting about improper cyclist behavior isn't a considerate thing to do. Let alone quoting a line that correctly suggests that motorists who kill cyclists are not treated similarly to motorists who are at fault in other fatal accidents. Accidents between vehicles and cyclists are not often the cyclist's fault (in <10% of accidents is the cyclist at fault)[1]. Bicycling organizations "do not know of a single case of a cyclist fatality in which the driver was prosecuted, except for D.U.I. or hit-and-run,”[2]. [1] http://www.sharetheroad.ca/what-are-the-dangers-in-terms-of-cycling-safety--p128277 http://www.sharetheroad.ca/what-are-the-dangers-in-terms-of-... [2]http://www.sharetheroad.ca/what-are-the-dangers-in-terms-of-cycling-safety--p128277 http://www.sharetheroad.ca/what-are-the-dangers-in-terms-of-...
- hack_edu 13y ago
  I don't see how traffic laws have anything to do with respect for life or equality in the eyes of the law. You've provided a perfect example of the cognitive dissonance that immediately manifests when cycling, traffic, and law are discussed. These are easy points to grab onto, based on one's own frustrated anecdotes. Unfortunately, its selection bias at its least. Cars are everywhere and almost hit you every 10 minutes you're behind the wheel. You know how to look for them, you're forced to when you are being evaluated for your license. Suddenly a cyclist comes along, the first one you notice that is, and once they act even a little sketchy you get to tick another box in your selection bias. Were he to be 'hit by a police car' while driving in his motorcycle or compact car, and likely killed, would we be discussing the validity of his death and its relation to the traffic habits of other cars/motorcycles/Ferrari drivers? I dare you to tell us yes. Meanwhile, this is completely independent of the issue of legal respect for life. The disproportionate number of charges dropped or DA's not charing offenders for incidents that involve cyclist deaths.
  - aroch 13y ago
    >Were he to be 'hit by a police car' while driving in his motorcycle or compact car, and likely killed, would we be discussing the validity of his death and its relation to the traffic habits of other cars/motorcycles/Ferrari drivers? I dare you to tell us yes. Yes. More people die every day and year in motor vehicle<>motor vehicle collisions than in vehicle<>bike collisions. On top of that, criticizing a cop's behavoir is something HN (and many other places) loves to do.
    - hack_edu 13y ago
      So, it'd be on the cover of HN and we'd just all but assume 'eh, he was a driver so I have to wonder what actually happened?'
      - aroch 13y ago
        Maybe you would assume that, but from experience much of the vitriol would be focused on the fact that a cop probably broke the law and in the process killed someone. The life of a cyclist is no more precious than the life of anyone else.
- hdevalence 13y ago
  > if they're on the road, they're a vehicle Try this out sometime, and see how far it gets you. Take up a full lane of traffic, as is your right as a vehicle, and see how long it takes before someone tries to run you down, because risking arriving at the office thirty seconds earlier is worth risking bodily harm to another human in a fit of road rage.
  - tehwebguy 13y ago
    I'm sure that's true, but what alternative are you suggesting?
  - reledi 13y ago
    > Take up a full lane of traffic, as is your right as a vehicle When cycling, you should only do this when you can keep up with traffic. Which is especially difficult when you have to slow down or stop often since you can't accelerate as quickly as a car.
- mikeash 13y ago
  How long until idiots stop bringing this up in this context, as if the rule breaking of some bicyclists magically condemns all of us?
- philwelch 13y ago
  If you think the death penalty is justified for violating traffic law, then I'm sure you won't mind if I ram a Ford Taurus off a bridge for speeding.
- nibal 13y ago
  I notice you use the pronoun 'Them' to refer to cyclists. 'They' make you sick with 'their' bullshit. 'They' break laws, while of course 'we' are wonderful, and our law breaking is justified. 'They' think they enjoy special privileges, while 'our' special privileges are unquestioned. And of course anyone defending 'them' must be one of 'them'. 'They' are remorseless killers, look I have proof! If only 'they' weren't so different and stubborn. If only 'they' behaved good like 'we' do. We should probably put a stop to 'them'.
- darkarmani 13y ago
  > How long until bicyclists stop pretending that traffic rules don't apply to them? Yes. Making sure that every bicyclist obeys the traffic rules is so much more important solving the problems of people dying because cars hit them. Rule and order is way more important than people's lives. Let's get angry about it.
- malandrew 13y ago
  Anecdotally, my experience has been that most people that get hit by cars as bicyclists are those that are following the rules diligently. Every accident I am personally aware of (n=5) involved the save courteous bikers I know. The aggressive bikers are typically far more skilled in operating their bicycles, but have has more near misses. They are generally far more actively aware of threats and constantly assess threat situations that they may get into and threat situations that might happen to them. Aggressive bicyclists know a lot more about how drivers are likely to behave on the road and can predict that behavior to their advantage.

aroch 13y ago

How long until the stolen lives of bicyclists are treated with the same respect as pedestrians and drivers? How long until bicyclists stop pretending that traffic rules don't apply to them? Or that they don't get to pick and choose when they're vehicles and when they're pedestrians -- if they're on the road, they're a vehicle? Or that, they too, have to come to a stop at a red light or stop sign? Or that they also have to respect pedestrians in crosswalks and can't just barrel through them?

ASpring 13y ago
You're attempting to say that because a subset of cyclists don't obey traffic rules therefore it's okay to not treat cyclists who are killed in traffic accidents as human beings. Stunning work.
- aroch 13y ago
  That isn't at all what I'm "attempting" to say. If the GP wants to complain about the law not being "enforced" to punish the cop perhaps they should complain about the lack of enforcement on cyclists too
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Why? Where is the rule that says you must complain about all bad things at once?
  - hack_edu 13y ago
    Let me know when a cyclist last killed a cop and lets talk about who got charged what. Also, you still are equating Failure to Stop's (which sure, could maybe someday cause some sort of fatal whatever someday whenever)... with the actual, real, actual loss of life. Insultingly vile.
    - aroch 13y ago
      Hey look, a recent example of a bicyclist not only injuring but killing a pedestrian because they chose not to obey the law. http://blogs.kqed.org/newsfix/2013/08/15/107079/Chris-Bucchere-Sutchi-Hui-bicyclist-pedestrian http://blogs.kqed.org/newsfix/2013/08/15/107079/Chris-Bucche... I hate the pedantic bullshit of elitist cyclists like yourself
      - hack_edu 13y ago
        Just to close this out, out of respect for the lives of Milton, the cop, Josh all others cited above... I'm not really a cyclist. I like it, its fun, and I ride safe on the handful of rides I have each year. But I might be a pedantic little shit. ;)
        crystaln 13y ago
        You're not a pedantic little shit. You're arguing with a jerk. Equating cyclists running stop signs to drivers killing cyclists in bike lanes is ridiculous, especially given that the cyclist in the example pled guilty to homicide and drivers are - literally - never prosecuted for killing cyclists. Don't be so quick to demean yourself in the face of asinine attacks.
      - darkarmani 13y ago
        > pleading guilty to felony vehicular manslaughter and avoiding a jury trial that could have sent him to prison if he were convicted. So we'll see this cop sentenced to vehicular manslaughter? Let's see if that happens. I'd love to be wrong.
- sukuriant 13y ago
  I think he was raging at the cyclists that don't obey the rules of the road, not cyclists in general. I know I can separate the two out in my mind. For example: when a bike is curb-hopping and ignoring stoplights, I become frustrated at their wanton disregard for their own safety. When I see a bike riding on the side of the road in their lane, focused and stopping at lights, I don't complain and comfortably wait until there's space for me to pass him with a wide berth and then do so. It's the same with pedestrians. I don't get upset if they're walking on the road. I get angry because I'm scared for their safety when they think it's okay to j-walk across 6 lanes of traffic in rush hour at night while wearing black because "I'm a pedestrian and if you hit me, I'll sue." No. If I hit you, you'll probably die because I'm a ton and a half of metal and you're 150 pounds of water and carbon. Cars are big and they are very dangerous. I may love my car and I love driving it. I love biking and I love walking as well and in some places in the world, we've designed it so that all of these activities can be done in close proximity with relatively high safety and everyone needs to do their part to keep it a safe environment. When cars don't respect bikers, people get hurt. When bikes don't respect cars and predictability (by staying in their lane, going WITH traffic, stopping at traffic lights, or staying on the sidewalk, etc), people get hurt. When pedestrians think they're God and don't pay attention to cars OR bikes, people get hurt. I have no idea what happened in this single instance that the article itself is talking about; but frustration with a certain kind of biker does not automatically result in believing "it's okay to not treat cyclists who are killed in traffic accidents as human beings".
  - ASpring 13y ago
    Thank you for the well thought out reply and I'll admit and apologize that the previous reply was snarky with a bit of anger. However, it suffices to say that using a thread lamenting the death of a cyclist for venting about improper cyclist behavior isn't a considerate thing to do. Let alone quoting a line that correctly suggests that motorists who kill cyclists are not treated similarly to motorists who are at fault in other fatal accidents. Accidents between vehicles and cyclists are not often the cyclist's fault (in <10% of accidents is the cyclist at fault)[1]. Bicycling organizations "do not know of a single case of a cyclist fatality in which the driver was prosecuted, except for D.U.I. or hit-and-run,”[2]. [1] http://www.sharetheroad.ca/what-are-the-dangers-in-terms-of-cycling-safety--p128277 http://www.sharetheroad.ca/what-are-the-dangers-in-terms-of-... [2]http://www.sharetheroad.ca/what-are-the-dangers-in-terms-of-cycling-safety--p128277 http://www.sharetheroad.ca/what-are-the-dangers-in-terms-of-...
hack_edu 13y ago
I don't see how traffic laws have anything to do with respect for life or equality in the eyes of the law. You've provided a perfect example of the cognitive dissonance that immediately manifests when cycling, traffic, and law are discussed. These are easy points to grab onto, based on one's own frustrated anecdotes. Unfortunately, its selection bias at its least. Cars are everywhere and almost hit you every 10 minutes you're behind the wheel. You know how to look for them, you're forced to when you are being evaluated for your license. Suddenly a cyclist comes along, the first one you notice that is, and once they act even a little sketchy you get to tick another box in your selection bias. Were he to be 'hit by a police car' while driving in his motorcycle or compact car, and likely killed, would we be discussing the validity of his death and its relation to the traffic habits of other cars/motorcycles/Ferrari drivers? I dare you to tell us yes. Meanwhile, this is completely independent of the issue of legal respect for life. The disproportionate number of charges dropped or DA's not charing offenders for incidents that involve cyclist deaths.
- aroch 13y ago
  >Were he to be 'hit by a police car' while driving in his motorcycle or compact car, and likely killed, would we be discussing the validity of his death and its relation to the traffic habits of other cars/motorcycles/Ferrari drivers? I dare you to tell us yes. Yes. More people die every day and year in motor vehicle<>motor vehicle collisions than in vehicle<>bike collisions. On top of that, criticizing a cop's behavoir is something HN (and many other places) loves to do.
  - hack_edu 13y ago
    So, it'd be on the cover of HN and we'd just all but assume 'eh, he was a driver so I have to wonder what actually happened?'
    - aroch 13y ago
      Maybe you would assume that, but from experience much of the vitriol would be focused on the fact that a cop probably broke the law and in the process killed someone. The life of a cyclist is no more precious than the life of anyone else.
hdevalence 13y ago
> if they're on the road, they're a vehicle Try this out sometime, and see how far it gets you. Take up a full lane of traffic, as is your right as a vehicle, and see how long it takes before someone tries to run you down, because risking arriving at the office thirty seconds earlier is worth risking bodily harm to another human in a fit of road rage.
- tehwebguy 13y ago
  I'm sure that's true, but what alternative are you suggesting?
- reledi 13y ago
  > Take up a full lane of traffic, as is your right as a vehicle When cycling, you should only do this when you can keep up with traffic. Which is especially difficult when you have to slow down or stop often since you can't accelerate as quickly as a car.
mikeash 13y ago
How long until idiots stop bringing this up in this context, as if the rule breaking of some bicyclists magically condemns all of us?
philwelch 13y ago
If you think the death penalty is justified for violating traffic law, then I'm sure you won't mind if I ram a Ford Taurus off a bridge for speeding.
nibal 13y ago
I notice you use the pronoun 'Them' to refer to cyclists. 'They' make you sick with 'their' bullshit. 'They' break laws, while of course 'we' are wonderful, and our law breaking is justified. 'They' think they enjoy special privileges, while 'our' special privileges are unquestioned. And of course anyone defending 'them' must be one of 'them'. 'They' are remorseless killers, look I have proof! If only 'they' weren't so different and stubborn. If only 'they' behaved good like 'we' do. We should probably put a stop to 'them'.
darkarmani 13y ago
> How long until bicyclists stop pretending that traffic rules don't apply to them? Yes. Making sure that every bicyclist obeys the traffic rules is so much more important solving the problems of people dying because cars hit them. Rule and order is way more important than people's lives. Let's get angry about it.
malandrew 13y ago
Anecdotally, my experience has been that most people that get hit by cars as bicyclists are those that are following the rules diligently. Every accident I am personally aware of (n=5) involved the save courteous bikers I know. The aggressive bikers are typically far more skilled in operating their bicycles, but have has more near misses. They are generally far more actively aware of threats and constantly assess threat situations that they may get into and threat situations that might happen to them. Aggressive bicyclists know a lot more about how drivers are likely to behave on the road and can predict that behavior to their advantage.