4 ms·

Dammit, Charlie, stop writing predictive near-future fiction! :-)

by kabdib 13y ago

walshemj 13y ago
Actually I could think of some nasty disutopias post Scottish independence if there's a hung election and the hardline nats get their way.
- teh_klev 13y ago
  Well go ahead and enlighten us rather than trolling this thread with baseless Better Together FUD. Edit: I just saw the full version of your comment on Stross's website: "And post Independence disutopias I could think of a few real world nasty outcomes for that as my Red Clydeside comrade said the NAT's have a (now well disguised) nasty sectarian/racist streak." Disclosure: I've been a SNP voter for all of my voting life (~29 years) and a card carrying member on and off during that time. I've encountered many criticisms about the SNP, some of which I agree with, others not, but that's quite a serious accusation and one I've never encountered, maybe you could cite examples of this? I've met plenty of sectarian voters who vote Scottish Labour (having campaigned for the party in Glasgow many times), but I wouldn't accuse the Scottish Labour party of having a hidden seedy sectarian underbelly.
  - arethuza 13y ago
    The scare stories in the press seem to be going the other way - accusing the SNP of planning to allow mass immigration post Independence: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/444422/Prepare-the-border-posts-fears-over-SNP-immigration-policy http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/444422/Prepare-the-border-p...
  - walshemj 13y ago
    yeh you right its both "traditions" As one of my Scottish colleagues said the thing that saddened him him about Scotland was the "nasty element of anti englishnes" and sectarianism that was common. And he was very knowledgeable about scotish politics and his facility with "engineering" language makes malcom tucker look like a middle class mommys boy. There are parts of Scotland where I would feel uncomfortable coming from a mixed (RC/PROD) background. I could see a post Independence Scotland pandering to right wing anti emigration lobby and or religious or anti gay presure - the same thing happened in Northern Ireland John Major had his feet held to the fire by the hardline unionists - I think thats on the far end but in the context of a future sf dysutopia not that much of a stretch after all coutrys like Holland had far right politicians making ground.
    - arethuza 13y ago
      "I could see a post Independence Scotland pandering to right wing anti emigration lobby and or religious or anti gay presure" There are far right nutters everywhere - but I like to think we actually have relatively few of them in Scotland, certainly UKIP seems to be doing remarkably badly here: http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/11/18/ukip-s-scotland-operation-falls-apart http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/11/18/ukip-s-scotland-op...
      - walshemj 13y ago
        Well the EU is seen positively by Scotland as it gets a fair bit of subvention for infrastructure. Though go to one of the fishing ports and ask a Scottish fisherman about fishing quotas and You might get a different answer.
        teh_klev 13y ago
        The EU and Europe is seen as valued by Scots because of things like the European Convention on Human Rights [1] which the current Westminster government are doing their damnedest to undermine. Also Europe is a huge trading partner for Scotland. I'm not saying the EU is without its faults, but at least an Independent Scotland would ensure Scots have a better say in European policies than the efforts being made by Cameroon and Co. I agree that fishing in Scotland has suffered badly over the past 20 years, but the blame is squarely with Westminster and the Scottish parliament hasn't been able to do much to reverse the current situation because it's a reserved matter. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_R...
    - teh_klev 13y ago
      "nasty element of anti englishnes and sectarianism that was common" - that is complete and utter rubbish and your "knowledgeable" colleague is painting a totally inaccurate negative picture about the attitude of Scottish people towards religious, racial and cultural tolerance. He should be ashamed. I will conceded that there are still some problems (which are being addressed) at old-firm games (Rangers vs Celtic) in relation to sectarian chanting, but that's tiny vocal minority who are given a disproportionate level of press coverage. The vast majority of Scottish football fans have no truck with this outmoded behaviour. As regards "anti englishnes [sic]" - there's always going to be a small minority of idiots who the press can't seem to ignore, but Scotland isn't a xenophobic country. Have you ever trawled the BBC News website comments section whenever a Scottish matter is opened up to discussion? It's a bit of an eye-opener. There's a very vocal bunch of folks who view Scotland and Scots as a bunch of soap dodgers and benefit lackies. Your pal's assertion cuts both ways there, but I don't view English people as "anti-Scottish" just because of a few feeble minded idiots (e.g. the English Defence League lot). "I could see a post Independence Scotland pandering to right wing anti emigration lobby and or religious or anti gay presure" - sigh. Have you looked at the electoral map of Scotland (for both Westminster and Scottish Parliaments). The only viable right of centre Westminster party in Scotland (The Scottish Conservative and Unionists) got their arses handed to them back in 1997 and lost every seat. Since the 2001 general election they've only managed to win one seat in Scotland. Nigel Farage (UKIP) was more or less told to fuck off and don't show his face again earlier this year when he appeared in Edinburgh. Scotland as a nation votes centre-left and has centre-left sensibilities culturally and politically. I could say something flame-worthy about Scottish Labour, but Scottish Labour voter's hearts are in the right place despite their Scottish leadership continuing to have its strings inextricably pulled by Westminster Labour - remember Brown's slap down of Wendy Alexander after her "bring it on" referendum challenge to Alex Salmond [1]?) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Alexander#Scottish_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Alexander#Scottish_indep...

Dammit, Charlie, stop writing predictive near-future fiction! :-)

by kabdib 13y ago

Dammit, Charlie, stop writing predictive near-future fiction! :-)

Actually I could think of some nasty disutopias post Scottish independence if there's a hung election and the hardline nats get their way.

teh_klev 13y ago
Well go ahead and enlighten us rather than trolling this thread with baseless Better Together FUD. Edit: I just saw the full version of your comment on Stross's website: "And post Independence disutopias I could think of a few real world nasty outcomes for that as my Red Clydeside comrade said the NAT's have a (now well disguised) nasty sectarian/racist streak." Disclosure: I've been a SNP voter for all of my voting life (~29 years) and a card carrying member on and off during that time. I've encountered many criticisms about the SNP, some of which I agree with, others not, but that's quite a serious accusation and one I've never encountered, maybe you could cite examples of this? I've met plenty of sectarian voters who vote Scottish Labour (having campaigned for the party in Glasgow many times), but I wouldn't accuse the Scottish Labour party of having a hidden seedy sectarian underbelly.
- arethuza 13y ago
  The scare stories in the press seem to be going the other way - accusing the SNP of planning to allow mass immigration post Independence: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/444422/Prepare-the-border-posts-fears-over-SNP-immigration-policy http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/444422/Prepare-the-border-p...
- walshemj 13y ago
  yeh you right its both "traditions" As one of my Scottish colleagues said the thing that saddened him him about Scotland was the "nasty element of anti englishnes" and sectarianism that was common. And he was very knowledgeable about scotish politics and his facility with "engineering" language makes malcom tucker look like a middle class mommys boy. There are parts of Scotland where I would feel uncomfortable coming from a mixed (RC/PROD) background. I could see a post Independence Scotland pandering to right wing anti emigration lobby and or religious or anti gay presure - the same thing happened in Northern Ireland John Major had his feet held to the fire by the hardline unionists - I think thats on the far end but in the context of a future sf dysutopia not that much of a stretch after all coutrys like Holland had far right politicians making ground.
  - arethuza 13y ago
    "I could see a post Independence Scotland pandering to right wing anti emigration lobby and or religious or anti gay presure" There are far right nutters everywhere - but I like to think we actually have relatively few of them in Scotland, certainly UKIP seems to be doing remarkably badly here: http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/11/18/ukip-s-scotland-operation-falls-apart http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2013/11/18/ukip-s-scotland-op...
    - walshemj 13y ago
      Well the EU is seen positively by Scotland as it gets a fair bit of subvention for infrastructure. Though go to one of the fishing ports and ask a Scottish fisherman about fishing quotas and You might get a different answer.
      - teh_klev 13y ago
        The EU and Europe is seen as valued by Scots because of things like the European Convention on Human Rights [1] which the current Westminster government are doing their damnedest to undermine. Also Europe is a huge trading partner for Scotland. I'm not saying the EU is without its faults, but at least an Independent Scotland would ensure Scots have a better say in European policies than the efforts being made by Cameroon and Co. I agree that fishing in Scotland has suffered badly over the past 20 years, but the blame is squarely with Westminster and the Scottish parliament hasn't been able to do much to reverse the current situation because it's a reserved matter. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_R...
  - teh_klev 13y ago
    "nasty element of anti englishnes and sectarianism that was common" - that is complete and utter rubbish and your "knowledgeable" colleague is painting a totally inaccurate negative picture about the attitude of Scottish people towards religious, racial and cultural tolerance. He should be ashamed. I will conceded that there are still some problems (which are being addressed) at old-firm games (Rangers vs Celtic) in relation to sectarian chanting, but that's tiny vocal minority who are given a disproportionate level of press coverage. The vast majority of Scottish football fans have no truck with this outmoded behaviour. As regards "anti englishnes [sic]" - there's always going to be a small minority of idiots who the press can't seem to ignore, but Scotland isn't a xenophobic country. Have you ever trawled the BBC News website comments section whenever a Scottish matter is opened up to discussion? It's a bit of an eye-opener. There's a very vocal bunch of folks who view Scotland and Scots as a bunch of soap dodgers and benefit lackies. Your pal's assertion cuts both ways there, but I don't view English people as "anti-Scottish" just because of a few feeble minded idiots (e.g. the English Defence League lot). "I could see a post Independence Scotland pandering to right wing anti emigration lobby and or religious or anti gay presure" - sigh. Have you looked at the electoral map of Scotland (for both Westminster and Scottish Parliaments). The only viable right of centre Westminster party in Scotland (The Scottish Conservative and Unionists) got their arses handed to them back in 1997 and lost every seat. Since the 2001 general election they've only managed to win one seat in Scotland. Nigel Farage (UKIP) was more or less told to fuck off and don't show his face again earlier this year when he appeared in Edinburgh. Scotland as a nation votes centre-left and has centre-left sensibilities culturally and politically. I could say something flame-worthy about Scottish Labour, but Scottish Labour voter's hearts are in the right place despite their Scottish leadership continuing to have its strings inextricably pulled by Westminster Labour - remember Brown's slap down of Wendy Alexander after her "bring it on" referendum challenge to Alex Salmond [1]?) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Alexander#Scottish_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Alexander#Scottish_indep...