7 ms·

A Battery Breakthrough that Proved Too Good to Be True

76 points by jcklnruns 13y ago

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mda 13y ago
As far as I remember all battery breakthroughs in last 20 years were sad stories.
- marvin 13y ago
  That's only part of the truth, though. There has been a steady increase in battery capacity per kg, dollar and volume over many years, it just hasn't been a revolutionary process.
- tonyarkles 13y ago
  That's maybe a bit pessimistic. We have come a long way (NiCd 40-60 Wh/kg, NiMH 30-80 Wh/kg, LiIon 150-250 Wh/kg), we're just still a long way from fossil fuels (~12,000 Wh/kg for gasoline). I think the biggest trick is to set expectations properly and wait it out as battery technology continues to evolve. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechargeable_battery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechargeable_battery
  - chongli 13y ago
    Woah, you can't compare those numbers directly. If you could then Tesla cars would be travelling just 10s of miles per charge. Obviously, there are many other factors: weight and bulk of the power train, power train efficiency, regenerative breaking, driving conditions, etc.
    - tonyarkles 13y ago
      Oh, totally agree! I wasn't necessarily referring to electric cars specifically, more just comparing how much energy different things store, although it does highlight why building long-range and high-performance electric cars is a Hard Problem. There's a lot of things that are different. The 50L of fuel in my car is going to weigh about 45kg and will get me about 800km, and the batteries in a Tesla weigh 300-500kg (not sure exactly, found a few different numbers). But like you say, the power train is considerably different, etc etc.
  - kyrra 13y ago
    Poking around, on the Lithium-air battery wiki page, they have this quote: > The energy density of gasoline is approximately 13 kW·h/kg, which corresponds to 1.7 kW·h/kg of energy provided to the wheels after losses. Any clue what the energy provided to the wheels is for electric cars like a Tesla? I'm wonder what the energy loss is for electric cars from stored form to actual power at the wheel.
    - plorkyeran 13y ago
      The Tesla Roadster was 88% efficient. I don't remember the exact value for the Model S, but it's in the same general range. This huge difference is the main thing that makes electric cars viable.
      - Zoomla 13y ago
        Also, electric cars can be powered by coal, nuclear, hydroelectric, etc... or whatever the grid is powered by.
    - seanalltogether 13y ago
      Good electric motors typically have 90%-95% efficiency. However tesla is using AC motors driven by DC batteries, so they have to convert.
- mscottmcbee 13y ago
  I think this is mostly a reflection of tech/science reporting. Batteries are hard. They're complex with many factors into what goes into a good battery. But the moment a lab creates one with good energy density, headlines just say "Scientists create batteries 20x greater than your iPhone" without paying attention to the fact that it has 20 charging cycles before it's useless.
seunosewa 13y ago
http://gigaom.com/2013/12/03/court-documents-reveal-doe-backed-envia-isnt-the-breakthrough-battery-startup-it-appeared/ http://gigaom.com/2013/12/03/court-documents-reveal-doe-back... <-- original link
- mdwe 13y ago
  Yes, this is a substantially more detailed article than the original tech review link - it actually details what the claimed deception is.
CapitalistCartr 13y ago
Batteriy and solar panel breakthroughs: stories of the week.
gus_massa 13y ago
One of the original press coverage: (~2 years ago) "GM Bets On Cheaper Electric-Car Batteries With Envia, Invests $17 Million" http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1054345_gm-bets-on-cheaper-electric-car-batteries-with-envia-invests-17-million http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1054345_gm-bets-on-cheap...
thrownaway2424 13y ago
Technology Review among all publications is the most guilty of hyping vaporware battery technology, especially, it must be said, if it is being developed by MIT people (not that Envia was). Here's the press release TR breathlessly and noncritically paraphrased in 2011. http://www.technologyreview.com/news/422627/startup-boasts-better-lithium-batteries/ http://www.technologyreview.com/news/422627/startup-boasts-b...
- mturmon 13y ago
  Tech. Review has a hype problem across all its range of coverage.
  - danielweber 13y ago
    Instead of moderation in all things, it tries to be extreme in many opposing directions. This doesn't work as well. I remember when they loved all kinds of patents without question except for one regular columnist that once had an article titled "Patents Kill." It would be a lot better if they were a little more suspicious of patents while not bothering at all to employ that guy.
- selmnoo 13y ago
  So, then journalists should be mercilessly and ruthlessly critical of all they are covering? ARPA-E judges are pretty smart folks, if they were fooled by this thing what makes you think a journalist on some tech news site is going to be able to vet this technology and determine if it's the going to be the next big thing or not? The point I really want to discuss is the negativity of your comment. We like to come down hard on people dismissing new projects for being incomplete, unpromising, and so on when it comes to social sharing apps. Why not also be kind to failures in the cleantech area? The area where it's actually really tough to innovate, the area where improvements would definitively make this earth better than how it's currently heading. ARPA-E's own stated mission is to fund ideas that are so far out that most institutions wouldn't fund them, "too early for private-sector investment" (their words). ARPA-E itself only expects 10% of the projects it funds to be successful. So then what good reason is there to cry about some specific project failing? It doesn't spell the end of ARPA-E, this is just the nature of the game. This is not some tragedy of news journals failing, nothing is wrong here, just move on. More will fail yet still, but one just might be that breakthrough that we're looking forward to.
transfire 13y ago
Another shill company designed fail. Meanwhile the real breakthroughs wither on the vine (e.g. http://gizmodo.com/this-graphene-coated-silicon-power-cell-signals-a-batte-1452245250 http://gizmodo.com/this-graphene-coated-silicon-power-cell-s...)
- jessaustin 13y ago
  Are you saying this isn't an investment opportunity, or that structural problems with the capital markets will mean that this investment opportunity will be ignored?
Edmond 13y ago
If reporters understood the law of conservation of energy they'll be more skeptical of energy solution claims, regardless of which form it takes.
lettergram 13y ago
I honestly think the best advancements aren't going to be battery technologies for mass transit(at least for the next hundred years or so). Which lead me to read about a group working on creating Biodiesel from algae[1]. Turns out they can have our waste (sewage) fed into vats with algae and providing the algae with nutrients to grow. They then dry/squeeze out the algae and due to the high amount of lipids produce oil and in turn it into oil (although low quality). The amazing part about this process is algae converts carbon to oxygen more efficiently than plants, and can only introduce as much carbon as it removes from the atmosphere. Therefore process would actually produce the same amount of carbon emissions as it reduces. Battery power is slow growing and will take many years (perhaps hundreds) based on the current rate to reach the efficiency of oil... So this seems like a better alternative to me. [1] http://algae.illinois.edu/Projects/BiodieselProduction.html http://algae.illinois.edu/Projects/BiodieselProduction.html
ARothfusz 13y ago
Imagine that it had worked. And imagine that the allegations were true: they had stolen the cathode from one company and purchased a sample of an anode from another, and that, together, they consistently stored 400 Wh/kg. Would all the intellectual property rights have stopped production anyway? Or are there circumstances when one or more governments would waive the IP rights and say "the world needs this technology to save itself from air pollution -- just make it and we'll sort out payments later"?
- bhousel 13y ago
  Why would intellectual property rights prevent anyone from buying parts from different suppliers and putting them together?
  - nickff 13y ago
    You are correct, patent exhaustion allows you to use any patented product as you wish, subject only to separate explicit contracts the customer has agreed to.
    - marshray 13y ago
      So if I buy a laser pointer with a patented on/off switch, I can use it to exercise my cat without fear of infringement of 5,443,036? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_exercising_a_cat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_exercising_a_cat
      - nickff 13y ago
        Perhaps I should have been more clear, and stated that the use of a patented product is not restricted by said patent; it is however subject to any separate contracts or obligations which the customer would be required to abide, had they not purchased the good. I must say that it depresses me to see frivolous patents like the one mentioned above, though it no longer surprises me.
deweller 13y ago
I Want to Believe!
losethos 13y ago
Memory fragmentation can happen, in theory, but it doesn't. My operating system is not general purpose. If a task cannot be done in my operating system, use another one. I have confirmed that all the things I envisioned doing with it, can be done just fine. It works great. I have tested and confirmed it.

76 points by jcklnruns 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

mda 13y ago

As far as I remember all battery breakthroughs in last 20 years were sad stories.

marvin 13y ago
That's only part of the truth, though. There has been a steady increase in battery capacity per kg, dollar and volume over many years, it just hasn't been a revolutionary process.
tonyarkles 13y ago
That's maybe a bit pessimistic. We have come a long way (NiCd 40-60 Wh/kg, NiMH 30-80 Wh/kg, LiIon 150-250 Wh/kg), we're just still a long way from fossil fuels (~12,000 Wh/kg for gasoline). I think the biggest trick is to set expectations properly and wait it out as battery technology continues to evolve. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechargeable_battery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechargeable_battery
- chongli 13y ago
  Woah, you can't compare those numbers directly. If you could then Tesla cars would be travelling just 10s of miles per charge. Obviously, there are many other factors: weight and bulk of the power train, power train efficiency, regenerative breaking, driving conditions, etc.
  - tonyarkles 13y ago
    Oh, totally agree! I wasn't necessarily referring to electric cars specifically, more just comparing how much energy different things store, although it does highlight why building long-range and high-performance electric cars is a Hard Problem. There's a lot of things that are different. The 50L of fuel in my car is going to weigh about 45kg and will get me about 800km, and the batteries in a Tesla weigh 300-500kg (not sure exactly, found a few different numbers). But like you say, the power train is considerably different, etc etc.
- kyrra 13y ago
  Poking around, on the Lithium-air battery wiki page, they have this quote: > The energy density of gasoline is approximately 13 kW·h/kg, which corresponds to 1.7 kW·h/kg of energy provided to the wheels after losses. Any clue what the energy provided to the wheels is for electric cars like a Tesla? I'm wonder what the energy loss is for electric cars from stored form to actual power at the wheel.
  - plorkyeran 13y ago
    The Tesla Roadster was 88% efficient. I don't remember the exact value for the Model S, but it's in the same general range. This huge difference is the main thing that makes electric cars viable.
    - Zoomla 13y ago
      Also, electric cars can be powered by coal, nuclear, hydroelectric, etc... or whatever the grid is powered by.
  - seanalltogether 13y ago
    Good electric motors typically have 90%-95% efficiency. However tesla is using AC motors driven by DC batteries, so they have to convert.
mscottmcbee 13y ago
I think this is mostly a reflection of tech/science reporting. Batteries are hard. They're complex with many factors into what goes into a good battery. But the moment a lab creates one with good energy density, headlines just say "Scientists create batteries 20x greater than your iPhone" without paying attention to the fact that it has 20 charging cycles before it's useless.

seunosewa 13y ago

http://gigaom.com/2013/12/03/court-documents-reveal-doe-backed-envia-isnt-the-breakthrough-battery-startup-it-appeared/ http://gigaom.com/2013/12/03/court-documents-reveal-doe-back... <-- original link

mdwe 13y ago
Yes, this is a substantially more detailed article than the original tech review link - it actually details what the claimed deception is.

CapitalistCartr 13y ago

Batteriy and solar panel breakthroughs: stories of the week.

gus_massa 13y ago

One of the original press coverage: (~2 years ago) "GM Bets On Cheaper Electric-Car Batteries With Envia, Invests $17 Million" http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1054345_gm-bets-on-cheaper-electric-car-batteries-with-envia-invests-17-million http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1054345_gm-bets-on-cheap...

thrownaway2424 13y ago

Technology Review among all publications is the most guilty of hyping vaporware battery technology, especially, it must be said, if it is being developed by MIT people (not that Envia was). Here's the press release TR breathlessly and noncritically paraphrased in 2011. http://www.technologyreview.com/news/422627/startup-boasts-better-lithium-batteries/ http://www.technologyreview.com/news/422627/startup-boasts-b...

mturmon 13y ago
Tech. Review has a hype problem across all its range of coverage.
- danielweber 13y ago
  Instead of moderation in all things, it tries to be extreme in many opposing directions. This doesn't work as well. I remember when they loved all kinds of patents without question except for one regular columnist that once had an article titled "Patents Kill." It would be a lot better if they were a little more suspicious of patents while not bothering at all to employ that guy.
selmnoo 13y ago
So, then journalists should be mercilessly and ruthlessly critical of all they are covering? ARPA-E judges are pretty smart folks, if they were fooled by this thing what makes you think a journalist on some tech news site is going to be able to vet this technology and determine if it's the going to be the next big thing or not? The point I really want to discuss is the negativity of your comment. We like to come down hard on people dismissing new projects for being incomplete, unpromising, and so on when it comes to social sharing apps. Why not also be kind to failures in the cleantech area? The area where it's actually really tough to innovate, the area where improvements would definitively make this earth better than how it's currently heading. ARPA-E's own stated mission is to fund ideas that are so far out that most institutions wouldn't fund them, "too early for private-sector investment" (their words). ARPA-E itself only expects 10% of the projects it funds to be successful. So then what good reason is there to cry about some specific project failing? It doesn't spell the end of ARPA-E, this is just the nature of the game. This is not some tragedy of news journals failing, nothing is wrong here, just move on. More will fail yet still, but one just might be that breakthrough that we're looking forward to.

transfire 13y ago

Another shill company designed fail. Meanwhile the real breakthroughs wither on the vine (e.g. http://gizmodo.com/this-graphene-coated-silicon-power-cell-signals-a-batte-1452245250 http://gizmodo.com/this-graphene-coated-silicon-power-cell-s...)

jessaustin 13y ago
Are you saying this isn't an investment opportunity, or that structural problems with the capital markets will mean that this investment opportunity will be ignored?

Edmond 13y ago

If reporters understood the law of conservation of energy they'll be more skeptical of energy solution claims, regardless of which form it takes.

lettergram 13y ago

I honestly think the best advancements aren't going to be battery technologies for mass transit(at least for the next hundred years or so). Which lead me to read about a group working on creating Biodiesel from algae[1]. Turns out they can have our waste (sewage) fed into vats with algae and providing the algae with nutrients to grow. They then dry/squeeze out the algae and due to the high amount of lipids produce oil and in turn it into oil (although low quality). The amazing part about this process is algae converts carbon to oxygen more efficiently than plants, and can only introduce as much carbon as it removes from the atmosphere. Therefore process would actually produce the same amount of carbon emissions as it reduces. Battery power is slow growing and will take many years (perhaps hundreds) based on the current rate to reach the efficiency of oil... So this seems like a better alternative to me. [1] http://algae.illinois.edu/Projects/BiodieselProduction.html http://algae.illinois.edu/Projects/BiodieselProduction.html

ARothfusz 13y ago

Imagine that it had worked. And imagine that the allegations were true: they had stolen the cathode from one company and purchased a sample of an anode from another, and that, together, they consistently stored 400 Wh/kg. Would all the intellectual property rights have stopped production anyway? Or are there circumstances when one or more governments would waive the IP rights and say "the world needs this technology to save itself from air pollution -- just make it and we'll sort out payments later"?

bhousel 13y ago
Why would intellectual property rights prevent anyone from buying parts from different suppliers and putting them together?
- nickff 13y ago
  You are correct, patent exhaustion allows you to use any patented product as you wish, subject only to separate explicit contracts the customer has agreed to.
  - marshray 13y ago
    So if I buy a laser pointer with a patented on/off switch, I can use it to exercise my cat without fear of infringement of 5,443,036? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_exercising_a_cat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_exercising_a_cat
    - nickff 13y ago
      Perhaps I should have been more clear, and stated that the use of a patented product is not restricted by said patent; it is however subject to any separate contracts or obligations which the customer would be required to abide, had they not purchased the good. I must say that it depresses me to see frivolous patents like the one mentioned above, though it no longer surprises me.

deweller 13y ago

I Want to Believe!

losethos 13y ago

Memory fragmentation can happen, in theory, but it doesn't. My operating system is not general purpose. If a task cannot be done in my operating system, use another one. I have confirmed that all the things I envisioned doing with it, can be done just fine. It works great. I have tested and confirmed it.