> I am on record here on HN as having participated in the Take Back the Fourth protest in Minneapolis about overreaching NSA surveillance. Let your argument st

> I am on record here on HN as having participated in the Take Back the Fourth protest in Minneapolis about overreaching NSA surveillance. Let your argument stand on its merits, not on what the argument-maker has or hasn't done in the past. > He would have done a lot more good for humankind by increasing the NSA's ability to conduct surveillance in China and in Russia... The United States has done tremendous good for humanity. But given our history of extralegal, unaccountable meddling in the foreign policy of other countries and how spectacularly it's blown up in our faces over and over again, I must absolutely disagree with you. > the two countries that have protected him so far... Every time a Snowden discussion comes up this point also bubbles to the top, as if people actually thought Snowden chose to flee to those countries because he felt that Russia and China had better support for freedom...as opposed to those two being practically the only possible countries he could flee to without being assured of his extradition. > I seem to be joined in my daily activities by a lot of Americans who think that Snowden didn't help anyone by revealing official secrets I think the NSA didn't help anyone by grossly overstepping its mandate and doing things which only tinfoil-hat cranks would have claimed the government did five years ago. > which governments to oppose This sort of belief, where government wrongdoing can never be exposed because the United States is implicitly locked in some sort of existential crusade against foes which do even worse (and exposing it would undermine this crusade), can be used to justify all sorts of evil, totalitarian actions. I don't think our moral yardstick should be set relative to the worst country(ies) in the world. I don't think our ideals (the ones tested by the War of 1812, the Civil War, WWII, the fight against segregation, and countless other times) are so fragile that we need to sink to the bottom of the barrel in order to guarantee our national survival. > another said, "Gitmo?" with a smile that indicated that he thought Snowden belongs there If this is the mindset of the "general opinion of the American public", I fear for the long-term future of rule of law in this country.