4 ms·

Let's keep things in perspective. America is 10 million square kilometers, 4 million square miles, so there are lots of communities that value smarts. My fres

by lsb 17y ago

Let's keep things in perspective. America is 10 million square kilometers, 4 million square miles, so there are lots of communities that value smarts. My freshman year college roommate was on his HS football team, captain of the math team, and knew the difference between synecdoche and metonymy. That said, it's appalling how freely people joke that they're bad at arithmetic, when they wouldn't joke so freely that they're bad at, say, being able to read.

warwick 17y ago
On the other end of the spectrum, there's an awful lot of people who believe that they're simply 'bad at sports'.
10ren 17y ago
synecdoche ("take a share of") means to use a part to represent the whole (or vice versa), or to use a subset to represent a superset (or vice versa). Pronunciation soundfile: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synecdoche http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synecdoche metonymy ("meta-word") strictly means to use a thing associated with something to represent it, rather than a part/subset. However it is often used more loosely, to mean both. Pronunciation soundfile: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/metonymy http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/metonymy The distinction can be slippery when you examine examples closely, because it depends on what you take to be the concepts involved.
christofd 17y ago
Agreed. Some of the smartest people I've met were actually quite athletic. The one does not exclude the other - most of our top students in high school (in Germany) were great athletes and are pursuing anything from theoretical physics to medicine. I personally don't like hanging with a nerdy crowd, like sports and sports channels. However, intellectual pursuits are interesting as well. I kinda like the positive spirit that athletes quite often bring to the table. My two cents.
seertaak 17y ago
I agree; probably the article is excessively polemicized. I do think the author has a point, but he oversimplifies in making it a black and white, us vs germany thing. I think the biggest difference is that it seems that in US schools, due to the high risks teachers face from litigation and the various incentive structures, the situation has degenerated to an "inmates running the asylum" scenario. The teachers, simply put, lack the ability to impose some minimum level of order and discipline, and the worst are allowed to run amok to the detriment of all of those remaining in the class. The focus in education in the last twenty years has always been "not leaving someone behind", and of course that sounds at worst anodyne if not downright saintly. Sadly, "not leaving someone behind" is in practical terms often paid for by the good students not being able to pay attention during class or being harrassed by the bad kids. I think it is probably along this dimension where there is the greatest disparity between the US and Europe. In Europe, at least to my mind, there seems to be more deference to authority, in particular to the teacher. Just as a silly example: in the US, there was a recent supreme court case where some kid had a banner that said "Bong Hits For Jesus" at a school event. The kid was ordered to remove the banner and IIRC was suspended or the like; nothing huge. So he took the school all the way to the supreme court! Aside from the absurd legal waste here, and despite the fact that he lost his appeal, what strikes me is the sense of entitlement. I don't think it would even cross a French or German high school student's mind to try to pull a stunt like that. On the other hand, US universities are the envy of the world --- and the concentration of US universities in the FT top universities ranking is evidence of that -- and there is no shortage of nerd glorification at these institutions. Also one need look no further than Silicon Valley to conclude that the situation for the US is far from lost. Finally, I would add that, in respect of high school education, it does seem that in more than a few places Europe is regressing in performance, and for much the same reason as the US and indeed many other countries: we've relaxed the system, made it easier for students, in particular the bad and disruptive ones, with predictable results. Not that I'm advocating a return to harsh punishment, sadistic teachers, militant drills, etc., but I think we need to think carefully about the overall incentives for students and teachers and ask if, in the current constellation, society is best served.
Scriptor 17y ago
"it's appalling how freely people joke that they're bad at arithmetic, when they wouldn't joke so freely that they're bad at, say, being able to read." When most people say they're horrible at math they mean they're horrible at the analytical mindset it requires. People don't say they're horrible at reading, neither do they say they're horrible at basic arithmetic. What people do say is that they don't read for fun on their own. I know people like that. They simply don't have the mindset needed to sit and read through a book just because they like doing it.

by lsb 17y ago

warwick 17y ago

On the other end of the spectrum, there's an awful lot of people who believe that they're simply 'bad at sports'.

10ren 17y ago

synecdoche ("take a share of") means to use a part to represent the whole (or vice versa), or to use a subset to represent a superset (or vice versa). Pronunciation soundfile: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synecdoche http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synecdoche metonymy ("meta-word") strictly means to use a thing associated with something to represent it, rather than a part/subset. However it is often used more loosely, to mean both. Pronunciation soundfile: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/metonymy http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/metonymy The distinction can be slippery when you examine examples closely, because it depends on what you take to be the concepts involved.

christofd 17y ago

Agreed. Some of the smartest people I've met were actually quite athletic. The one does not exclude the other - most of our top students in high school (in Germany) were great athletes and are pursuing anything from theoretical physics to medicine. I personally don't like hanging with a nerdy crowd, like sports and sports channels. However, intellectual pursuits are interesting as well. I kinda like the positive spirit that athletes quite often bring to the table. My two cents.

seertaak 17y ago

I agree; probably the article is excessively polemicized. I do think the author has a point, but he oversimplifies in making it a black and white, us vs germany thing. I think the biggest difference is that it seems that in US schools, due to the high risks teachers face from litigation and the various incentive structures, the situation has degenerated to an "inmates running the asylum" scenario. The teachers, simply put, lack the ability to impose some minimum level of order and discipline, and the worst are allowed to run amok to the detriment of all of those remaining in the class. The focus in education in the last twenty years has always been "not leaving someone behind", and of course that sounds at worst anodyne if not downright saintly. Sadly, "not leaving someone behind" is in practical terms often paid for by the good students not being able to pay attention during class or being harrassed by the bad kids. I think it is probably along this dimension where there is the greatest disparity between the US and Europe. In Europe, at least to my mind, there seems to be more deference to authority, in particular to the teacher. Just as a silly example: in the US, there was a recent supreme court case where some kid had a banner that said "Bong Hits For Jesus" at a school event. The kid was ordered to remove the banner and IIRC was suspended or the like; nothing huge. So he took the school all the way to the supreme court! Aside from the absurd legal waste here, and despite the fact that he lost his appeal, what strikes me is the sense of entitlement. I don't think it would even cross a French or German high school student's mind to try to pull a stunt like that. On the other hand, US universities are the envy of the world --- and the concentration of US universities in the FT top universities ranking is evidence of that -- and there is no shortage of nerd glorification at these institutions. Also one need look no further than Silicon Valley to conclude that the situation for the US is far from lost. Finally, I would add that, in respect of high school education, it does seem that in more than a few places Europe is regressing in performance, and for much the same reason as the US and indeed many other countries: we've relaxed the system, made it easier for students, in particular the bad and disruptive ones, with predictable results. Not that I'm advocating a return to harsh punishment, sadistic teachers, militant drills, etc., but I think we need to think carefully about the overall incentives for students and teachers and ask if, in the current constellation, society is best served.

Scriptor 17y ago

"it's appalling how freely people joke that they're bad at arithmetic, when they wouldn't joke so freely that they're bad at, say, being able to read." When most people say they're horrible at math they mean they're horrible at the analytical mindset it requires. People don't say they're horrible at reading, neither do they say they're horrible at basic arithmetic. What people do say is that they don't read for fun on their own. I know people like that. They simply don't have the mindset needed to sit and read through a book just because they like doing it.