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> The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd have a good

by eshvk 13y ago

> The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd have a good job waiting on the other side, and its largely BS. So I didn't grow up in the United States so I am not aware of what high school counsellors teach kids, but are there people really selling the idea that if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparative literature, you will end up with a good job? The other thing that surprises me about blanket statements like this is why is personal responsibility missing? Especially in a country with such vast free flow of information? I am not knocking on the idea of going to college learn in a structured way anything you like. However, surely complaining you can't get a job at the end because the market can hire only so many English majors or Philosophy majors is rather silly?

Aloha 13y ago
Largely yes. It's the message I was given in High School - I graduated in 2001. We we're also expected to know what we wanted to do (ideally) for the rest of our lives.
crazy1van 13y ago
> but are there people really selling the idea that if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparative literature, you will end up with a good job? Unfortunately, yes.
aeturnum 13y ago
>if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparative literature, you will end up with a good job? This appears to be just my experience, but absolutely not. I graduated high school in 2004 and had a very strong sense of choosing between more marketable majors and majors that are less marketable but may be more personally satisfying. Everyone that I talked to: teachers, guidance staff, parents, and friends all urged me to consider (as one of many factors) what career a particular degree might lead to. I ended up getting a major in a field with jobs (CS) and a minor in an area with fewer job prospects (religious studies). It's also worth pointing out that even degrees that are generally considered dead ends can work out quite well if you plan correctly. My friend who went into history is working on becoming a librarian (using an apprentice-like process) and his SO has been making a living doing freelance editing for a few years now. They both figured out paths that worked for them in a relatively weak jobs market.
randomdata 13y ago
I'm not from the USA either, and while I remember counsellors proposing community college/trades, the societal view was that you would be doomed to work in a mediocre job with mediocre pay for life with that kind of education. Worse, if you didn't attend post-secondary education at all, you'd be lucky if McDonalds would hire you to flip burgers. Only those with university educations were going to make anything of themselves. In hindsight it was pretty ridiculous that anyone actually spread that message, having no basis in reality, but when you are not even/barely a legal adult and have spent the vast majority of your life in school, it is difficult to see what the real world is actually has in store.
spamizbad 13y ago
> So I didn't grow up in the United States so I am not aware of what high school counsellors teach kids, but are there people really selling the idea that if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparative literature, you will end up with a good job? Yes. And it wasn't just HS guidance councilors pushing this - parents were saying the same thing. That's because as the white collar workforce in the US expanded in the 1960s through the early 80s, many positions just asked for a 4-year degree. The idea was a college degree showed you were teachable in advanced subjects and you'd do most of your learning on the job. Since then (US) employers have shifted away from job training and prefer candidates who can "hit the ground running." -- either by job experience or relevant degree or both. Unfortunately, many schools and parents did not pick up on this change for whatever reason.
steveklabnik 13y ago
It's not that you'll get a good job, it's that if you don't go to college for SOMETHING you're an abject failure. I got out of school with $72,000 in debt thanks to this.
wrobbins 13y ago
Just to demonstrate the answer to your question: I'm currently a junior in HS and am going through the process of learning about colleges. Last week, our guidance counselors gave us pamphlets. They were blatantly telling us to pursue liberal arts degrees (such as art or music) even with low job prospects. They were reassuring us that we should follow our passions no matter what. Lots of kids saw right through the promises of success and threw out the pamphlets right away. They really try and convince you that a four year university is the only option. (I go to a very affluent, competitive HS. I think that the counselors want to maintain their college placement rates even if it means sending kids to college if they are failing high school classes. The system is completely broken or just plain ignorant, but that's just my opinion.)
- VLM 13y ago
  " I think that the counselors want to maintain their college placement rates" Not "want" but are paid to. When you get older you'll see a push toward metrics in a corporate world. The counselor trying to sell you a liberal arts degree is evaluated and paid based on some metric like "% of students after 5 years with a 4-year degree" and so forth.
will_work4tears 13y ago
I can't say about High School, as I went from there into the military, but later in life, after several years of factory/warehouse type jobs, I got fed up and went to college. I initially went to a community college, and the guidance councillor there tried talking me out of going a Physical Therapy degree route (switched several times and ended up going CS) into a Trade direction instead. The only thing keeping me from regretting the decision is the fact that I'd never had met my current wife if I hadn't gone to university.

by eshvk 13y ago

Aloha 13y ago

Largely yes. It's the message I was given in High School - I graduated in 2001. We we're also expected to know what we wanted to do (ideally) for the rest of our lives.

crazy1van 13y ago

> but are there people really selling the idea that if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparative literature, you will end up with a good job? Unfortunately, yes.

aeturnum 13y ago

>if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparative literature, you will end up with a good job? This appears to be just my experience, but absolutely not. I graduated high school in 2004 and had a very strong sense of choosing between more marketable majors and majors that are less marketable but may be more personally satisfying. Everyone that I talked to: teachers, guidance staff, parents, and friends all urged me to consider (as one of many factors) what career a particular degree might lead to. I ended up getting a major in a field with jobs (CS) and a minor in an area with fewer job prospects (religious studies). It's also worth pointing out that even degrees that are generally considered dead ends can work out quite well if you plan correctly. My friend who went into history is working on becoming a librarian (using an apprentice-like process) and his SO has been making a living doing freelance editing for a few years now. They both figured out paths that worked for them in a relatively weak jobs market.

randomdata 13y ago

I'm not from the USA either, and while I remember counsellors proposing community college/trades, the societal view was that you would be doomed to work in a mediocre job with mediocre pay for life with that kind of education. Worse, if you didn't attend post-secondary education at all, you'd be lucky if McDonalds would hire you to flip burgers. Only those with university educations were going to make anything of themselves. In hindsight it was pretty ridiculous that anyone actually spread that message, having no basis in reality, but when you are not even/barely a legal adult and have spent the vast majority of your life in school, it is difficult to see what the real world is actually has in store.

spamizbad 13y ago

> So I didn't grow up in the United States so I am not aware of what high school counsellors teach kids, but are there people really selling the idea that if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparative literature, you will end up with a good job? Yes. And it wasn't just HS guidance councilors pushing this - parents were saying the same thing. That's because as the white collar workforce in the US expanded in the 1960s through the early 80s, many positions just asked for a 4-year degree. The idea was a college degree showed you were teachable in advanced subjects and you'd do most of your learning on the job. Since then (US) employers have shifted away from job training and prefer candidates who can "hit the ground running." -- either by job experience or relevant degree or both. Unfortunately, many schools and parents did not pick up on this change for whatever reason.

steveklabnik 13y ago

It's not that you'll get a good job, it's that if you don't go to college for SOMETHING you're an abject failure. I got out of school with $72,000 in debt thanks to this.

wrobbins 13y ago

Just to demonstrate the answer to your question: I'm currently a junior in HS and am going through the process of learning about colleges. Last week, our guidance counselors gave us pamphlets. They were blatantly telling us to pursue liberal arts degrees (such as art or music) even with low job prospects. They were reassuring us that we should follow our passions no matter what. Lots of kids saw right through the promises of success and threw out the pamphlets right away. They really try and convince you that a four year university is the only option. (I go to a very affluent, competitive HS. I think that the counselors want to maintain their college placement rates even if it means sending kids to college if they are failing high school classes. The system is completely broken or just plain ignorant, but that's just my opinion.)

VLM 13y ago
" I think that the counselors want to maintain their college placement rates" Not "want" but are paid to. When you get older you'll see a push toward metrics in a corporate world. The counselor trying to sell you a liberal arts degree is evaluated and paid based on some metric like "% of students after 5 years with a 4-year degree" and so forth.

will_work4tears 13y ago

I can't say about High School, as I went from there into the military, but later in life, after several years of factory/warehouse type jobs, I got fed up and went to college. I initially went to a community college, and the guidance councillor there tried talking me out of going a Physical Therapy degree route (switched several times and ended up going CS) into a Trade direction instead. The only thing keeping me from regretting the decision is the fact that I'd never had met my current wife if I hadn't gone to university.