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Personally I can't stand software. I'd rather have real kit simply because there is a maintenance overhead for supporting software based solutions. Embedded sy

by csmuk 13y ago

Personally I can't stand software. I'd rather have real kit simply because there is a maintenance overhead for supporting software based solutions. Embedded systems i.e workstations are probably a good midpoint. You can just sit down and play shit then. However, $1000 for 808 clones is batshit. I paid less than half that for my Triton Studio which emulates an 808 pretty much spot on with about 20 mins work.

tessierashpool 13y ago
I'm curious if you make that statement having played 808s in real life (and my assumption is the answer's no). I've got analog synths, digital synths, and soft synths. My $40 Korg Monotron is more expressive than my $700 1997 Access Virus. But the Animoog iPad app trumps them both ($40, and I think I got it for $5 because I bought on the first day or something). There's a reason nobody has ever cheapened the Stradivarius by creating new technology. The selling point is craftsmanship and good design. The 808's a work of art and it's always better to have the real thing, if you're serious about music. (I mean absolutely no offense, but it sounds like it's just a hobby to you.) Speaking of iPads, there's a great simulation of a later-model Korg ER-1 drum machine availabe for iPad. It's called iElectribe. I love it, but I used to own an early version of the real thing, and it was just better. Context: I've owned many drum machines, even built a toy one for fun (the Bleep Drum, from Bleep Labs), and I'm learning to play the drums.
- csmuk 13y ago
  Not professionally, but I owned one for about a year in the mid 1990's. It was sold simply because it didn't fit into the workflow easily. No MIDI, refused to sync to anything properly, weighs a flipton, the step keys were iffy and the worst bit is that the analogue side was crap i.e. it used to drift terribly after it got warm. Programming was pretty good though so i'll give it that. Access Virus is a rip off. I had a KC and it was no better than a Novation KS6 at a fraction of the cost. Fortunately the scene I was in grew out of the Virus eventually. Not sure about a monotron - horrible sounding feepers. Seem to be trendy but not particularly musical. I very much doubt many Stradivarius' are actually played. They are like art. The value is subjective. Personally I hate the whining things and would rather use them to smoke some cheese with (this is sarcasm) :) For me, it's a matter of pragmatism. My Triton sounds pretty good (not too digital) and saves lugging a crap ton of kit around. If it doesn't do something, I'll sample something that does do it and I'm sorted. NB I was a session keyboardist in the goth/industrial scene for a number of years (also known as unemployed student) so I have some professional experience.
  - fr0sty 13y ago
    A fair number (unsure of the proportion) of Stradivarius instruments actually are played. John Bell famously played his in a DC Metro station[0]. Many more are played by the likes of Yo-Yo Ma, and principle instrumentalists of various symphonies. Browsing this list[1] it would seem that many more instruments are in the hands of musicians than are in museums. [0] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04... [1] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instrume...
- rhizome 13y ago
  To be fair, a lot of effort has been put into duplicating the Stradivarius sound, and (so far) it has more to do with botany and meteorology than craftsmanship and design. To be even fairer, according to Wikipedia, Strads have not fared so well in double-blind tests, but that doesn't account for changing ears throughout history.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >There's a reason nobody has ever cheapened the Stradivarius by creating new technology. The selling point is craftsmanship and good design. Nope, their major selling point is their myth, vintage status and patina. That's why nobody cheapened them with new technology. Those are not attributes you can make better with technology or that relate to music and audio performance directly. (That's why, say, the guitar Hendrix played in Woodstock would trump any 10 times better in timbre and keeping its tuning guitar in any auction sale). There were several A/B tests with Stradivarius and most professional violinists couldn't even tell them apart from regular violins. E.g: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius#Comparisons_in_sound_quality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius#Comparisons_in_sou... >The 808's a work of art and it's always better to have the real thing, if you're serious about music. No, that's only if you are serious about collecting stuff. Nothing to do with music. >(I mean absolutely no offense, but it sounds like it's just a hobby to you.) Professional electronic musicians, absolutely passionate about music, have used 808 sounds in ROMpler and/or analogue emulation audio plugin form for ages. Collecting pieces of history, even musical history, has nothing to do with being "serious about music" as a musician.
wrongc0ntinent 13y ago
You're missing a couple of points, the first one being interface. What the machine makes you do to get a rhythm out of it is directly related to the result, just like any other physical instrument. The second, price, is only important because software, especially free, was not a choice. Adjusted for inflation, $250 in 1980 was probably $600-$700, if not more. There are plenty of drum machines you can get for under $300 nowadays.
- csmuk 13y ago
  Drum pads. MIDI in. Interface sorted. We're not in the 80's now and even in the late 80's a workstation was practical (think Korg M1). I mean Oldfield did pretty well with them and an ST.
  - wrongc0ntinent 13y ago
    Well aware of midi gear. My point was that implicitly comparing those or drum machines to a "real kit" is apples and oranges, because of the interface.
    - csmuk 13y ago
      I'm comparing the value derived over the interface.
      - timc3 13y ago
        Half of the value is in the interface, with dedicated knobs, the multiple outputs, the way the sequence is not totally perfect, and the workflow that brings about.
        csmuk 13y ago
        I get where you're coming from but I get that with my workstation. Triton has assignable knobs and pages and pages of virtual knobs which are trivial to change. If you really want you can stick a MIDI knob box in the back of it and associate those to a virtual control including parameters equivalent to the 808's. Triton has multiple outs and multiple internal busses. Think of it as a 120 note polyphonic synth with 16 part timbrality, built in rack of effects, built in sequencer, built in sampler and a full size studio mixer and half a hard disk recorder (TBH I use an external DAT because they're bomb proof). Plus it burns and rips CDs and loads Akai samples off floppies and CDs. It's a whole pile of awesome which fits in a flight case. My rhythm is naff enough that the Triton's sequencer has the resolution to pick it up. If I really want to, which as per you I don't, I can quantize on the device and get it perfect. Then I can assign patterns to keys and play them with my left hand while I hammer out a lead with the right hand.

by csmuk 13y ago

tessierashpool 13y ago

I'm curious if you make that statement having played 808s in real life (and my assumption is the answer's no). I've got analog synths, digital synths, and soft synths. My $40 Korg Monotron is more expressive than my $700 1997 Access Virus. But the Animoog iPad app trumps them both ($40, and I think I got it for $5 because I bought on the first day or something). There's a reason nobody has ever cheapened the Stradivarius by creating new technology. The selling point is craftsmanship and good design. The 808's a work of art and it's always better to have the real thing, if you're serious about music. (I mean absolutely no offense, but it sounds like it's just a hobby to you.) Speaking of iPads, there's a great simulation of a later-model Korg ER-1 drum machine availabe for iPad. It's called iElectribe. I love it, but I used to own an early version of the real thing, and it was just better. Context: I've owned many drum machines, even built a toy one for fun (the Bleep Drum, from Bleep Labs), and I'm learning to play the drums.

csmuk 13y ago
Not professionally, but I owned one for about a year in the mid 1990's. It was sold simply because it didn't fit into the workflow easily. No MIDI, refused to sync to anything properly, weighs a flipton, the step keys were iffy and the worst bit is that the analogue side was crap i.e. it used to drift terribly after it got warm. Programming was pretty good though so i'll give it that. Access Virus is a rip off. I had a KC and it was no better than a Novation KS6 at a fraction of the cost. Fortunately the scene I was in grew out of the Virus eventually. Not sure about a monotron - horrible sounding feepers. Seem to be trendy but not particularly musical. I very much doubt many Stradivarius' are actually played. They are like art. The value is subjective. Personally I hate the whining things and would rather use them to smoke some cheese with (this is sarcasm) :) For me, it's a matter of pragmatism. My Triton sounds pretty good (not too digital) and saves lugging a crap ton of kit around. If it doesn't do something, I'll sample something that does do it and I'm sorted. NB I was a session keyboardist in the goth/industrial scene for a number of years (also known as unemployed student) so I have some professional experience.
- fr0sty 13y ago
  A fair number (unsure of the proportion) of Stradivarius instruments actually are played. John Bell famously played his in a DC Metro station[0]. Many more are played by the likes of Yo-Yo Ma, and principle instrumentalists of various symphonies. Browsing this list[1] it would seem that many more instruments are in the hands of musicians than are in museums. [0] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04... [1] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instruments http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stradivarius_instrume...
rhizome 13y ago
To be fair, a lot of effort has been put into duplicating the Stradivarius sound, and (so far) it has more to do with botany and meteorology than craftsmanship and design. To be even fairer, according to Wikipedia, Strads have not fared so well in double-blind tests, but that doesn't account for changing ears throughout history.
coldtea 13y ago
>There's a reason nobody has ever cheapened the Stradivarius by creating new technology. The selling point is craftsmanship and good design. Nope, their major selling point is their myth, vintage status and patina. That's why nobody cheapened them with new technology. Those are not attributes you can make better with technology or that relate to music and audio performance directly. (That's why, say, the guitar Hendrix played in Woodstock would trump any 10 times better in timbre and keeping its tuning guitar in any auction sale). There were several A/B tests with Stradivarius and most professional violinists couldn't even tell them apart from regular violins. E.g: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius#Comparisons_in_sound_quality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius#Comparisons_in_sou... >The 808's a work of art and it's always better to have the real thing, if you're serious about music. No, that's only if you are serious about collecting stuff. Nothing to do with music. >(I mean absolutely no offense, but it sounds like it's just a hobby to you.) Professional electronic musicians, absolutely passionate about music, have used 808 sounds in ROMpler and/or analogue emulation audio plugin form for ages. Collecting pieces of history, even musical history, has nothing to do with being "serious about music" as a musician.

wrongc0ntinent 13y ago

You're missing a couple of points, the first one being interface. What the machine makes you do to get a rhythm out of it is directly related to the result, just like any other physical instrument. The second, price, is only important because software, especially free, was not a choice. Adjusted for inflation, $250 in 1980 was probably $600-$700, if not more. There are plenty of drum machines you can get for under $300 nowadays.

csmuk 13y ago
Drum pads. MIDI in. Interface sorted. We're not in the 80's now and even in the late 80's a workstation was practical (think Korg M1). I mean Oldfield did pretty well with them and an ST.
- wrongc0ntinent 13y ago
  Well aware of midi gear. My point was that implicitly comparing those or drum machines to a "real kit" is apples and oranges, because of the interface.
  - csmuk 13y ago
    I'm comparing the value derived over the interface.
    - timc3 13y ago
      Half of the value is in the interface, with dedicated knobs, the multiple outputs, the way the sequence is not totally perfect, and the workflow that brings about.
      - csmuk 13y ago
        I get where you're coming from but I get that with my workstation. Triton has assignable knobs and pages and pages of virtual knobs which are trivial to change. If you really want you can stick a MIDI knob box in the back of it and associate those to a virtual control including parameters equivalent to the 808's. Triton has multiple outs and multiple internal busses. Think of it as a 120 note polyphonic synth with 16 part timbrality, built in rack of effects, built in sequencer, built in sampler and a full size studio mixer and half a hard disk recorder (TBH I use an external DAT because they're bomb proof). Plus it burns and rips CDs and loads Akai samples off floppies and CDs. It's a whole pile of awesome which fits in a flight case. My rhythm is naff enough that the Triton's sequencer has the resolution to pick it up. If I really want to, which as per you I don't, I can quantize on the device and get it perfect. Then I can assign patterns to keys and play them with my left hand while I hammer out a lead with the right hand.