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From my understanding, fear of vaccines is closely tied to Thimerosal content, which is a derivative of Ethyl Mercury. The idea is, "there's Mercury in the vacc

From my understanding, fear of vaccines is closely tied to Thimerosal content, which is a derivative of Ethyl Mercury. The idea is, "there's Mercury in the vaccine, and Mercury causes Autism" - which is scary thought for a parent. If there was empirical data showing zero correlation between Autism rates, and Thimerosal, I think we'd see more people accepting vaccines.

rocksinsocks 13y ago
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/ http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/
- ChrisAntaki 13y ago
  Cool, so the studies have been done: http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2004/Immunization-Safety-Review-Vaccines-and-Autism.aspx http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2004/Immunization-Safety-Review-V... "The committee concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism. The committee also concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism."
  - pekk 13y ago
    But you didn't bother to look it up yourself before continuing to spread FUD about vaccines. A behavior which is literally killing people.
    - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
      There's no reason to attach sigma to discussing the beliefs, of people who aren't taking the vaccines.
      - mikeash 13y ago
        There is actually plenty of reason to attach stigma to discussing beliefs in an area where there is plentiful hard data.
        rocksinsocks 13y ago
        The dude was a little ignorant (it's surprising how he managed to avoid knowing anything about this given the constant publicity), but at least he's a good sport. Be happy that he'll be on your side from now on - that's how differences are made.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - aestra 13y ago
    The studies have been done again and again and again and again. It is well studied. The link was only purposed by one study that used fake data that was done because some greedy assholes wanted to make a profit suing. THAT IS IT. That's the "controversy" that is making people sick. The study has been retracted from the journal it was published in. Much independent research on Andrew Wakefield (author of the study) revealed he was paid cold hard cash by lawyers. Andrew Wakefield has since been stripped of his medical license. Fuck them all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield The cat is out of the bag. It can't be put back in.
seiji 13y ago
Is there empirical data showing non-zero correlation?
- ChrisAntaki 13y ago
  Good question - I'm not aware of any such studies.
  - spikels 13y ago
    I'm assuming you have access to a search engine. Why not use it before spreading doubt? Are you unaware of both the controversy and potential damage? Did you read the article we are discussing?
Justsignedup 13y ago
And that was because some jerk wanted to sue the vaccine makers, failed multiple times, but his ripples are still seen. The cost of an idiot ignoring critical vaccines in a society is pretty high. Should be made illegal.
pekk 13y ago
That isn't how science works. You have to demonstrate a link between measles vaccines and autism. You can't just wait for someone to disprove it forever, because that is not possible.
- windsurfer 13y ago
  And that isn't how the irrational public works, it seems.
  - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
    Well said! I should have wrote originally: "To alleviate irrational fears, we'd need a study showing zero correlation."
- gizmo686 13y ago
  This is medicine. You have to demonstrate that a treatment is safe and effective before you can begin using it. You even have to show that it is likely safe and effective before you even get to test on humans. The only difference with vaccines is that we have already demonstrated that they are safe and effective, and what they prevent is unusually damaging to society (epidemics). They are also unusual in the sense that not getting vaccinated yourself increase the risk of others, even if they have been vaccinated.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  That is kind of how medicine was practiced until fairly recently, and by some accounts continues to be practiced today.
ceejayoz 13y ago
> If there was empirical data showing zero correlation between Autism rates, and Thimerosal, I think we'd see more people accepting vaccines. There is, and they're not. People trust random myths on the internet over the CDC.
mikeash 13y ago
Why do you phrase the "data showing zero correlation" thing as a hypothetical? That's the world we're in, right now.
raverbashing 13y ago
What I think happened is: there was a big pushback against Thiomersal in local antiseptics So, they create a campaign against its "dangers" while maintaining it in vaccines? It confuses people. Yes, it has its risks, but the benefits outweigh it. But it's being phased out in vaccines as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal
techsupporter 13y ago
You cannot prove an impossibility, so demonstrating no correlation between Autism and Thimerosal is not going to happen. The possibility, however, is so miniscule as to be drastically outweighed by the benefits of vaccination. It is also a completely irrational fear stoked by celebrities with axes to grind and discredited medical "professionals." Acetaminophen can cause liver failure but people give that to their children all the time and can easily give an overdose that will be fatal to children yet not at all harmful to an adult. If a parent buys a house built prior to 1978, the lead paint in the rooms can cause brain damage and hearing problems in children, but people buy those houses all the time. People even fail to install safety seats properly (or at all). These are all dangers proven to kill or harm children far more often and far more dramatically than the hypothetically miniscule risk of getting Autism from a vaccine. My child's pediatrician flatly refuses to have vaccine deniers as patients. Summaries of studies rebutting Jenny McCarthy are posted in exam rooms and the full studies are available as free handouts to anyone who asks. If a parent declines vaccines that are on the standard "minimum required vaccinations for public school enrollment" list, the parent is invited to seek another doctor. And, for me and my kid, I'm thrilled that she has that stance.
- ChrisAntaki 13y ago
  > The possibility, however, is so miniscule as to be drastically outweighed by the benefits of vaccination Good point - there's a societal gain to vaccination. > If a parent declines vaccines that are on the standard "minimum required vaccinations for public school enrollment" list, the parent is invited to seek another doctor. And, for me and my kid, I'm thrilled that she has that stance. It sounds like you've looked at the evidence, and made a rational decision. I plan to vaccinate my children too, on a healthy schedule. :) There's still a lot of value in discussing the beliefs of those who don't. They are people, with free will, and yelling at them / labeling them doesn't solve a whole lot. Though you / other HN commenters might have a different view on this.
  - darkarmani 13y ago
    > There's still a lot of value in discussing the beliefs of those who don't. They are people, with free will, and yelling at them / labeling them doesn't solve a whole lot. Though you / other HN commenters might have a different view on this. Maybe most people are tired of having this conversation because the people that choose to believe that vaccines are harmful, don't want to educate themselves or care to be swayed by any amount of science. At this point it is more beneficial to label them and move on with our lives, because interacting with "reality disbelievers" is a fruitless exercise. Either way, reality always wins in the end.
sanskritabelt 13y ago
Thiomersal (note spelling) is no longer used in vaccines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal and generally hasn't been in infant vaccines for over a decade: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy
res0nat0r 13y ago
Thimerosal was removed from vaccines a long time ago. Also Andrew Wakefield has been throughly discredited, his paper retracted, and he has also had his medical license revoked. The Panic Virus is a great book about the autism/vaccine mess. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11625150-the-panic-virus https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11625150-the-panic-virus

rocksinsocks 13y ago

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/ http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/

ChrisAntaki 13y ago
Cool, so the studies have been done: http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2004/Immunization-Safety-Review-Vaccines-and-Autism.aspx http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2004/Immunization-Safety-Review-V... "The committee concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism. The committee also concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism."
- pekk 13y ago
  But you didn't bother to look it up yourself before continuing to spread FUD about vaccines. A behavior which is literally killing people.
  - ChrisAntaki 13y ago
    There's no reason to attach sigma to discussing the beliefs, of people who aren't taking the vaccines.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      There is actually plenty of reason to attach stigma to discussing beliefs in an area where there is plentiful hard data.
      - rocksinsocks 13y ago
        The dude was a little ignorant (it's surprising how he managed to avoid knowing anything about this given the constant publicity), but at least he's a good sport. Be happy that he'll be on your side from now on - that's how differences are made.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- aestra 13y ago
  The studies have been done again and again and again and again. It is well studied. The link was only purposed by one study that used fake data that was done because some greedy assholes wanted to make a profit suing. THAT IS IT. That's the "controversy" that is making people sick. The study has been retracted from the journal it was published in. Much independent research on Andrew Wakefield (author of the study) revealed he was paid cold hard cash by lawyers. Andrew Wakefield has since been stripped of his medical license. Fuck them all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield The cat is out of the bag. It can't be put back in.

seiji 13y ago

Is there empirical data showing non-zero correlation?

ChrisAntaki 13y ago
Good question - I'm not aware of any such studies.
- spikels 13y ago
  I'm assuming you have access to a search engine. Why not use it before spreading doubt? Are you unaware of both the controversy and potential damage? Did you read the article we are discussing?

Justsignedup 13y ago

And that was because some jerk wanted to sue the vaccine makers, failed multiple times, but his ripples are still seen. The cost of an idiot ignoring critical vaccines in a society is pretty high. Should be made illegal.

pekk 13y ago

That isn't how science works. You have to demonstrate a link between measles vaccines and autism. You can't just wait for someone to disprove it forever, because that is not possible.

windsurfer 13y ago
And that isn't how the irrational public works, it seems.
- ChrisAntaki 13y ago
  Well said! I should have wrote originally: "To alleviate irrational fears, we'd need a study showing zero correlation."
gizmo686 13y ago
This is medicine. You have to demonstrate that a treatment is safe and effective before you can begin using it. You even have to show that it is likely safe and effective before you even get to test on humans. The only difference with vaccines is that we have already demonstrated that they are safe and effective, and what they prevent is unusually damaging to society (epidemics). They are also unusual in the sense that not getting vaccinated yourself increase the risk of others, even if they have been vaccinated.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
That is kind of how medicine was practiced until fairly recently, and by some accounts continues to be practiced today.

ceejayoz 13y ago

> If there was empirical data showing zero correlation between Autism rates, and Thimerosal, I think we'd see more people accepting vaccines. There is, and they're not. People trust random myths on the internet over the CDC.

mikeash 13y ago

Why do you phrase the "data showing zero correlation" thing as a hypothetical? That's the world we're in, right now.

raverbashing 13y ago

What I think happened is: there was a big pushback against Thiomersal in local antiseptics So, they create a campaign against its "dangers" while maintaining it in vaccines? It confuses people. Yes, it has its risks, but the benefits outweigh it. But it's being phased out in vaccines as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal

techsupporter 13y ago

You cannot prove an impossibility, so demonstrating no correlation between Autism and Thimerosal is not going to happen. The possibility, however, is so miniscule as to be drastically outweighed by the benefits of vaccination. It is also a completely irrational fear stoked by celebrities with axes to grind and discredited medical "professionals." Acetaminophen can cause liver failure but people give that to their children all the time and can easily give an overdose that will be fatal to children yet not at all harmful to an adult. If a parent buys a house built prior to 1978, the lead paint in the rooms can cause brain damage and hearing problems in children, but people buy those houses all the time. People even fail to install safety seats properly (or at all). These are all dangers proven to kill or harm children far more often and far more dramatically than the hypothetically miniscule risk of getting Autism from a vaccine. My child's pediatrician flatly refuses to have vaccine deniers as patients. Summaries of studies rebutting Jenny McCarthy are posted in exam rooms and the full studies are available as free handouts to anyone who asks. If a parent declines vaccines that are on the standard "minimum required vaccinations for public school enrollment" list, the parent is invited to seek another doctor. And, for me and my kid, I'm thrilled that she has that stance.

ChrisAntaki 13y ago
> The possibility, however, is so miniscule as to be drastically outweighed by the benefits of vaccination Good point - there's a societal gain to vaccination. > If a parent declines vaccines that are on the standard "minimum required vaccinations for public school enrollment" list, the parent is invited to seek another doctor. And, for me and my kid, I'm thrilled that she has that stance. It sounds like you've looked at the evidence, and made a rational decision. I plan to vaccinate my children too, on a healthy schedule. :) There's still a lot of value in discussing the beliefs of those who don't. They are people, with free will, and yelling at them / labeling them doesn't solve a whole lot. Though you / other HN commenters might have a different view on this.
- darkarmani 13y ago
  > There's still a lot of value in discussing the beliefs of those who don't. They are people, with free will, and yelling at them / labeling them doesn't solve a whole lot. Though you / other HN commenters might have a different view on this. Maybe most people are tired of having this conversation because the people that choose to believe that vaccines are harmful, don't want to educate themselves or care to be swayed by any amount of science. At this point it is more beneficial to label them and move on with our lives, because interacting with "reality disbelievers" is a fruitless exercise. Either way, reality always wins in the end.

sanskritabelt 13y ago

Thiomersal (note spelling) is no longer used in vaccines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal and generally hasn't been in infant vaccines for over a decade: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy

res0nat0r 13y ago

Thimerosal was removed from vaccines a long time ago. Also Andrew Wakefield has been throughly discredited, his paper retracted, and he has also had his medical license revoked. The Panic Virus is a great book about the autism/vaccine mess. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11625150-the-panic-virus https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11625150-the-panic-virus