8 ms·

So what is the intended effect of forcing you to do things that you do not want to do and emotionally abusing you if you fail to comply, every day? How can you

by no_wave 13y ago

So what is the intended effect of forcing you to do things that you do not want to do and emotionally abusing you if you fail to comply, every day? How can you teach someone agency by traumatizing them if they attempt to exercise it?

Nursie 13y ago
This was not my experience of school. The US school system sounds like it has systemic problems, and may have bad results. But to say that the whole aim of the system and those in it is to kill creativity and individualism is ludicrous.
- no_wave 13y ago
  How is it "ludicrous"? The aim of every educational reform I have ever seen is "how do we make students do what we want and perform the way we want?". I have NEVER seen the question "how do we encourage students to behave in ways that we do not expect?". What does this signal?
  - Nursie 13y ago
    >> "how do we make students do what we want and perform the way we want" I've never, ever heard it put that way by people pushing educational reform or by educators themselves. "How do we help children learn better?", that one comes up quite a lot but is rather different. >> I have NEVER seen the question "how do we encourage students behave in ways that we do not expect". It doesn't seem like a useful question to me. >> What does this signal? Very little.
    - Domenic_S 13y ago
      > "How do we help children learn better?" By acknowledging that not all children learn well in lecture/"traditional classroom" formats and doing something about it. But that would undermine the system.
      - Nursie 13y ago
        This is acknowledged, as is parental choice. You don't have to send your kid to that kind of school or to any school at all, but you do have to educate them. I struggle to find this unreasonable. The people (via the state) fund a particular model, it's true. And you'll never catch me arguing it's not full of all sorts of flaws, but I would still dispute that suppression of individuality and creativity are even a minor goal in state education, let alone a primary one.
        Domenic_S 13y ago
        > You don't have to send your kid to that kind of school or to any school at all, but you do have to educate them. Sounds reasonable on its face, but the reality is that if you try and homeschool you will face all types of resistance from the educational establishment. Tellingly, you will encounter that resistance from public primary schools (many colleges love homeschoolers). This is because the primary goal of the system is to strengthen and reinforce itself. This is so that it may have complete power to create generations of people who contribute to making a strong country through work and capitalism. This purpose may be good or bad, I leave that judgement as an exercise to the reader. But let's not pretend that any of this is done in the best interests of children.
        Nursie 13y ago
        >> But let's not pretend that any of this is done in the best interests of children. Ummm, yeah it is. Without education they, individually, will find it very hard to thrive in our capitalist system. Again, I struggle to see this as a bad thing. Yes - one of the goals of the political classes in establishing a perpetuating a compulsory education system is most likely to be economic. I'm not sure I understand how "people who contribute to making a strong country through work and capitalism" are necessarily devoid of individuality or creativity. (--edit-- I agree that a lot of systems do end up becoming very focussed on self preservation and expanding their reach, look at the military and police. Education is in no way immune from this, I still don't think that suppressing individuality and creativity are key goals of the system though)
        13y ago
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

by no_wave 13y ago

Nursie 13y ago

This was not my experience of school. The US school system sounds like it has systemic problems, and may have bad results. But to say that the whole aim of the system and those in it is to kill creativity and individualism is ludicrous.

no_wave 13y ago
How is it "ludicrous"? The aim of every educational reform I have ever seen is "how do we make students do what we want and perform the way we want?". I have NEVER seen the question "how do we encourage students to behave in ways that we do not expect?". What does this signal?
- Nursie 13y ago
  >> "how do we make students do what we want and perform the way we want" I've never, ever heard it put that way by people pushing educational reform or by educators themselves. "How do we help children learn better?", that one comes up quite a lot but is rather different. >> I have NEVER seen the question "how do we encourage students behave in ways that we do not expect". It doesn't seem like a useful question to me. >> What does this signal? Very little.
  - Domenic_S 13y ago
    > "How do we help children learn better?" By acknowledging that not all children learn well in lecture/"traditional classroom" formats and doing something about it. But that would undermine the system.
    - Nursie 13y ago
      This is acknowledged, as is parental choice. You don't have to send your kid to that kind of school or to any school at all, but you do have to educate them. I struggle to find this unreasonable. The people (via the state) fund a particular model, it's true. And you'll never catch me arguing it's not full of all sorts of flaws, but I would still dispute that suppression of individuality and creativity are even a minor goal in state education, let alone a primary one.
      - Domenic_S 13y ago
        > You don't have to send your kid to that kind of school or to any school at all, but you do have to educate them. Sounds reasonable on its face, but the reality is that if you try and homeschool you will face all types of resistance from the educational establishment. Tellingly, you will encounter that resistance from public primary schools (many colleges love homeschoolers). This is because the primary goal of the system is to strengthen and reinforce itself. This is so that it may have complete power to create generations of people who contribute to making a strong country through work and capitalism. This purpose may be good or bad, I leave that judgement as an exercise to the reader. But let's not pretend that any of this is done in the best interests of children.
        Nursie 13y ago
        >> But let's not pretend that any of this is done in the best interests of children. Ummm, yeah it is. Without education they, individually, will find it very hard to thrive in our capitalist system. Again, I struggle to see this as a bad thing. Yes - one of the goals of the political classes in establishing a perpetuating a compulsory education system is most likely to be economic. I'm not sure I understand how "people who contribute to making a strong country through work and capitalism" are necessarily devoid of individuality or creativity. (--edit-- I agree that a lot of systems do end up becoming very focussed on self preservation and expanding their reach, look at the military and police. Education is in no way immune from this, I still don't think that suppressing individuality and creativity are key goals of the system though)
        13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]