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Yes, I fully realize that Kickstarter is not directly a store. You're not pledging money towards immediately available products. They've added some unique fac

by brk 13y ago

Yes, I fully realize that Kickstarter is not directly a store. You're not pledging money towards immediately available products. They've added some unique factors to it. Otherwise, we would have never heard of them in the first place. But calling it a pledge just because there are caveats attached still does not (IMO) change what people SEE Kickstarter as... I haven't heard from too many people that "pledged" money into a successfully funded project that never delivered walk away saying "Oh well, no big deal". Kickstarter is basically leading people to believe they are going to get something very specific in return for their money. The projects even list higher-valued items for higher pledge amounts. This is much more "store"-like than it is not.

ghaff 13y ago
It's not really very store-like but you're absolutely correct that a lot of people view it that way. One doesn't have to look very far to find threads filled with all sorts of vitriol and threats over some kickstarter project which, despite what one assumes were the best of intentions, simply wasn't delivered as promised. Of course, the fact that "Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill" also reinforces the idea that getting what's promised is guaranteed. But that doesn't help if the money is just gone.
jasonlotito 13y ago
> Kickstarter is basically leading people to believe they are going to get something very specific in return for their money. No, they don't. They've done nothing to suggest otherwise, and they continue to try and make it clear that it's not a story, you aren't buying something like in a store. They've been consistent in this manner, and have even taken steps to ensure this point is made, such as making it so you can't pledge for more than one of the items. > But calling it a pledge just because there are caveats attached still does not (IMO) change what people SEE Kickstarter as... If that was all they did, you might have a point. But that's so far from the truth, it's insulting. > I haven't heard from too many people that "pledged" money into a successfully funded project that never delivered walk away saying "Oh well, no big deal". I haven't heard from too many people that "invested" money into a successfully funded startup that never delivered walk away saying "Oh well, no big deal". At the end of the day, the only people thinking they are "buying" something at KS are those people that don't actually read what they are "buying". At some point, you have to put the blame on the user.
- brk 13y ago
  "No, they don't. They've done nothing to suggest otherwise, and they continue to try and make it clear that it's not a story, you aren't buying something like in a store." So you think this page:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/253126792/rocktm-first-qi-wifi-lifestyle-smartwatch-wireless/pledge/new?clicked_reward=false https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/253126792/rocktm-first-... which lists "pledge" amounts, and "rewards" does not lead people to think they are getting something in return for their money? It lists descriptions of the products, and also gives indications of limited quantities in some cases. Something that would likely not be a concern if a person had no reason to expect a physical object back from their pledge. If you have no right to expect something, why would available quantities be an issue? "At the end of the day, the only people thinking they are "buying" something at KS are those people that don't actually read what they are "buying"." On this we mostly agree. I just went through the pledge process on KS for this (up to the point of actually pledging). There is a whole lot more text describing the item you receive with a pledge amount than there is warning you about the caveats (one small text box that gives of an ebayish "we're just a middleman" warning), other caveats are behind links, which we all know are rarely clicked. From the perspective of the average consumer, KS looks much more like a store/daily deal/discount style website than anything else.
  - jasonlotito 13y ago
    > So you think Yeah, I do. And yes, to answer your question, I think that page, which is not the first page one would visit for a project, is quite clear. I'm sorry, but KickStarter is clear as clear can be. I'm sorry, but anyone that expects something different is dumb, and I have no sympathy for them at this point. > (one small text box that gives of an ebayish "we're just a middleman" warning) There is a whole section called Risks and challenges on the project's main page. There is a box clearly labeled on the pledge page that says: "Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project." Everything talks about "Estimated delivery" dates. Not sure what KickStarter is? At the top of the main page, right next to the name! What is KickStarter? http://www.kickstarter.com/hello?ref=nav http://www.kickstarter.com/hello?ref=nav > other caveats are behind links, which we all know are rarely clicked. I'm sorry, but there is more than enough text explaining what's going on. > From the perspective of the average consumer, KS looks much more like a store/daily deal/discount style website than anything else. No. Only from the perspective of the below-average consumer. I'm normally tolerant of people not understanding things, but at this point, I couldn't care less. If someone is stupid enough to blindly ignore all the clear notices and wording saying exactly what they are doing and saying exactly what is really being promised, it's their own damn fault. I've backed 20 projects and haven't had a bad experience. Things haven't always gone as planned, but I've never had an issue. I'm sorry, but if the someone can't use KickStarter like an adult, maybe it will prevent them from falling for a Nigerian scam they would have inevitably fell for.

by brk 13y ago

ghaff 13y ago

It's not really very store-like but you're absolutely correct that a lot of people view it that way. One doesn't have to look very far to find threads filled with all sorts of vitriol and threats over some kickstarter project which, despite what one assumes were the best of intentions, simply wasn't delivered as promised. Of course, the fact that "Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill" also reinforces the idea that getting what's promised is guaranteed. But that doesn't help if the money is just gone.

jasonlotito 13y ago

> Kickstarter is basically leading people to believe they are going to get something very specific in return for their money. No, they don't. They've done nothing to suggest otherwise, and they continue to try and make it clear that it's not a story, you aren't buying something like in a store. They've been consistent in this manner, and have even taken steps to ensure this point is made, such as making it so you can't pledge for more than one of the items. > But calling it a pledge just because there are caveats attached still does not (IMO) change what people SEE Kickstarter as... If that was all they did, you might have a point. But that's so far from the truth, it's insulting. > I haven't heard from too many people that "pledged" money into a successfully funded project that never delivered walk away saying "Oh well, no big deal". I haven't heard from too many people that "invested" money into a successfully funded startup that never delivered walk away saying "Oh well, no big deal". At the end of the day, the only people thinking they are "buying" something at KS are those people that don't actually read what they are "buying". At some point, you have to put the blame on the user.

brk 13y ago
"No, they don't. They've done nothing to suggest otherwise, and they continue to try and make it clear that it's not a story, you aren't buying something like in a store." So you think this page:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/253126792/rocktm-first-qi-wifi-lifestyle-smartwatch-wireless/pledge/new?clicked_reward=false https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/253126792/rocktm-first-... which lists "pledge" amounts, and "rewards" does not lead people to think they are getting something in return for their money? It lists descriptions of the products, and also gives indications of limited quantities in some cases. Something that would likely not be a concern if a person had no reason to expect a physical object back from their pledge. If you have no right to expect something, why would available quantities be an issue? "At the end of the day, the only people thinking they are "buying" something at KS are those people that don't actually read what they are "buying"." On this we mostly agree. I just went through the pledge process on KS for this (up to the point of actually pledging). There is a whole lot more text describing the item you receive with a pledge amount than there is warning you about the caveats (one small text box that gives of an ebayish "we're just a middleman" warning), other caveats are behind links, which we all know are rarely clicked. From the perspective of the average consumer, KS looks much more like a store/daily deal/discount style website than anything else.
- jasonlotito 13y ago
  > So you think Yeah, I do. And yes, to answer your question, I think that page, which is not the first page one would visit for a project, is quite clear. I'm sorry, but KickStarter is clear as clear can be. I'm sorry, but anyone that expects something different is dumb, and I have no sympathy for them at this point. > (one small text box that gives of an ebayish "we're just a middleman" warning) There is a whole section called Risks and challenges on the project's main page. There is a box clearly labeled on the pledge page that says: "Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project." Everything talks about "Estimated delivery" dates. Not sure what KickStarter is? At the top of the main page, right next to the name! What is KickStarter? http://www.kickstarter.com/hello?ref=nav http://www.kickstarter.com/hello?ref=nav > other caveats are behind links, which we all know are rarely clicked. I'm sorry, but there is more than enough text explaining what's going on. > From the perspective of the average consumer, KS looks much more like a store/daily deal/discount style website than anything else. No. Only from the perspective of the below-average consumer. I'm normally tolerant of people not understanding things, but at this point, I couldn't care less. If someone is stupid enough to blindly ignore all the clear notices and wording saying exactly what they are doing and saying exactly what is really being promised, it's their own damn fault. I've backed 20 projects and haven't had a bad experience. Things haven't always gone as planned, but I've never had an issue. I'm sorry, but if the someone can't use KickStarter like an adult, maybe it will prevent them from falling for a Nigerian scam they would have inevitably fell for.