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> Sure, you can call the funds a "pledge" It is a pledge. You are pledging to give money, but not actually giving it. If they are successfully pledged enough

> Sure, you can call the funds a "pledge" It is a pledge. You are pledging to give money, but not actually giving it. If they are successfully pledged enough money at the end of the time, everyone is charged. However, that doesn't mean everyone is successfully charged. It's well established that there are people who pledge but don't pay. You could meet your pledge requirements, but still have less in funding that you needed (discounting the known cut KS and CC companies take). Point is, it's a pledge. > I still don't get the "it's not a store" argument. What don't you get? > You give some money, and you get some (generally speaking) 1-time tangible thing back. Ahh. You are missing some parts. What you really mean to say is this: "You pledge to give them some money in the hopes other people pledge as well so that they meat some minimum requirement. If enough is pledged, the company can then continue working on whatever project they were trying to fund. Things can and will change. You may eventually get something back. You may not. It make take years longer. It may be different from what you originally pledged for. It's not always a 1-time tangible thing back." If that's your idea of a store...

brk 13y ago
Yes, I fully realize that Kickstarter is not directly a store. You're not pledging money towards immediately available products. They've added some unique factors to it. Otherwise, we would have never heard of them in the first place. But calling it a pledge just because there are caveats attached still does not (IMO) change what people SEE Kickstarter as... I haven't heard from too many people that "pledged" money into a successfully funded project that never delivered walk away saying "Oh well, no big deal". Kickstarter is basically leading people to believe they are going to get something very specific in return for their money. The projects even list higher-valued items for higher pledge amounts. This is much more "store"-like than it is not.
- ghaff 13y ago
  It's not really very store-like but you're absolutely correct that a lot of people view it that way. One doesn't have to look very far to find threads filled with all sorts of vitriol and threats over some kickstarter project which, despite what one assumes were the best of intentions, simply wasn't delivered as promised. Of course, the fact that "Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill" also reinforces the idea that getting what's promised is guaranteed. But that doesn't help if the money is just gone.
- jasonlotito 13y ago
  > Kickstarter is basically leading people to believe they are going to get something very specific in return for their money. No, they don't. They've done nothing to suggest otherwise, and they continue to try and make it clear that it's not a story, you aren't buying something like in a store. They've been consistent in this manner, and have even taken steps to ensure this point is made, such as making it so you can't pledge for more than one of the items. > But calling it a pledge just because there are caveats attached still does not (IMO) change what people SEE Kickstarter as... If that was all they did, you might have a point. But that's so far from the truth, it's insulting. > I haven't heard from too many people that "pledged" money into a successfully funded project that never delivered walk away saying "Oh well, no big deal". I haven't heard from too many people that "invested" money into a successfully funded startup that never delivered walk away saying "Oh well, no big deal". At the end of the day, the only people thinking they are "buying" something at KS are those people that don't actually read what they are "buying". At some point, you have to put the blame on the user.
  - brk 13y ago
    "No, they don't. They've done nothing to suggest otherwise, and they continue to try and make it clear that it's not a story, you aren't buying something like in a store." So you think this page:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/253126792/rocktm-first-qi-wifi-lifestyle-smartwatch-wireless/pledge/new?clicked_reward=false https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/253126792/rocktm-first-... which lists "pledge" amounts, and "rewards" does not lead people to think they are getting something in return for their money? It lists descriptions of the products, and also gives indications of limited quantities in some cases. Something that would likely not be a concern if a person had no reason to expect a physical object back from their pledge. If you have no right to expect something, why would available quantities be an issue? "At the end of the day, the only people thinking they are "buying" something at KS are those people that don't actually read what they are "buying"." On this we mostly agree. I just went through the pledge process on KS for this (up to the point of actually pledging). There is a whole lot more text describing the item you receive with a pledge amount than there is warning you about the caveats (one small text box that gives of an ebayish "we're just a middleman" warning), other caveats are behind links, which we all know are rarely clicked. From the perspective of the average consumer, KS looks much more like a store/daily deal/discount style website than anything else.
jcromartie 13y ago
It's a store with an assurance contract model, like Groupon. You wouldn't say that people "pledge" to get their Groupon.
- jasonlotito 13y ago
  No, because there is a distinct difference in the result of Groupon and KS. KS makes it clear at many, many levels what your pledge means. Groupon makes it clear how your purchase works.

brk 13y ago

Yes, I fully realize that Kickstarter is not directly a store. You're not pledging money towards immediately available products. They've added some unique factors to it. Otherwise, we would have never heard of them in the first place. But calling it a pledge just because there are caveats attached still does not (IMO) change what people SEE Kickstarter as... I haven't heard from too many people that "pledged" money into a successfully funded project that never delivered walk away saying "Oh well, no big deal". Kickstarter is basically leading people to believe they are going to get something very specific in return for their money. The projects even list higher-valued items for higher pledge amounts. This is much more "store"-like than it is not.

ghaff 13y ago
It's not really very store-like but you're absolutely correct that a lot of people view it that way. One doesn't have to look very far to find threads filled with all sorts of vitriol and threats over some kickstarter project which, despite what one assumes were the best of intentions, simply wasn't delivered as promised. Of course, the fact that "Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill" also reinforces the idea that getting what's promised is guaranteed. But that doesn't help if the money is just gone.
jasonlotito 13y ago
> Kickstarter is basically leading people to believe they are going to get something very specific in return for their money. No, they don't. They've done nothing to suggest otherwise, and they continue to try and make it clear that it's not a story, you aren't buying something like in a store. They've been consistent in this manner, and have even taken steps to ensure this point is made, such as making it so you can't pledge for more than one of the items. > But calling it a pledge just because there are caveats attached still does not (IMO) change what people SEE Kickstarter as... If that was all they did, you might have a point. But that's so far from the truth, it's insulting. > I haven't heard from too many people that "pledged" money into a successfully funded project that never delivered walk away saying "Oh well, no big deal". I haven't heard from too many people that "invested" money into a successfully funded startup that never delivered walk away saying "Oh well, no big deal". At the end of the day, the only people thinking they are "buying" something at KS are those people that don't actually read what they are "buying". At some point, you have to put the blame on the user.
- brk 13y ago
  "No, they don't. They've done nothing to suggest otherwise, and they continue to try and make it clear that it's not a story, you aren't buying something like in a store." So you think this page:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/253126792/rocktm-first-qi-wifi-lifestyle-smartwatch-wireless/pledge/new?clicked_reward=false https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/253126792/rocktm-first-... which lists "pledge" amounts, and "rewards" does not lead people to think they are getting something in return for their money? It lists descriptions of the products, and also gives indications of limited quantities in some cases. Something that would likely not be a concern if a person had no reason to expect a physical object back from their pledge. If you have no right to expect something, why would available quantities be an issue? "At the end of the day, the only people thinking they are "buying" something at KS are those people that don't actually read what they are "buying"." On this we mostly agree. I just went through the pledge process on KS for this (up to the point of actually pledging). There is a whole lot more text describing the item you receive with a pledge amount than there is warning you about the caveats (one small text box that gives of an ebayish "we're just a middleman" warning), other caveats are behind links, which we all know are rarely clicked. From the perspective of the average consumer, KS looks much more like a store/daily deal/discount style website than anything else.

jcromartie 13y ago

It's a store with an assurance contract model, like Groupon. You wouldn't say that people "pledge" to get their Groupon.

jasonlotito 13y ago
No, because there is a distinct difference in the result of Groupon and KS. KS makes it clear at many, many levels what your pledge means. Groupon makes it clear how your purchase works.