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I am neither a right-winger nor an American. I am very much left-wing. You should be aware that the left is vehemently against liberalism, as it presents such

I am neither a right-winger nor an American. I am very much left-wing. You should be aware that the left is vehemently against liberalism, as it presents such a rosy view of current society that it reduces the terrible things happening to being some floaty idea that doesn't apply to Me. As liberal media are doing currently by saying that Mandela was just a peaceful protestor.

SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
> You should be aware that the left is vehemently against liberalism What does that statement even mean?
- md224 13y ago
  This might help clarify, the semantics can be a bit confusing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States#American_versus_European_use_of_the_term_.22liberalism.22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United...
- Crito 13y ago
  Much of this terminology is muddled, particularly in America, which makes this difficult to talk about in a clear manner, but my understanding is that some leftists believe that liberals stand in the way of the true reform that leftist's want, and often take credit for the achievements of leftists to boot. (Perhaps it is easier to consider that right wingers and conservatives are not necessarily the same thing, and can very easily be in conflict with each other. I'm not entirely sure if that helps..) In this instance, it seems to me that mathieuh is very much a leftist, and likely considers Mandela to be the same. Certainly he seems to approve of what Mandela did (I think several people here are misinterpreting what mathieuh has said as criticism of Mandela). He thinks that liberals are attempting to co-opt Mandela as one of their own and apply ideologies associated with liberalism (nonviolence as an ends of its own) to Mandela, even if those associations are not grounded in history. In doing this, they obscure Mandela's true leftist ideologies, which were exceedingly successful. By rewriting leftist victories as liberal victories, diminishing the perceived value of leftist techniques, they present a threat to leftists.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
    > some leftists believe that liberals stand in the way I'm still not 100% sure if mathieuh (and you) are using the word "liberal" to mean "left" or "not left". I first assumed "left" but he's not making much sense that way. I suggest that if you insist on using that word, be aware for the potential for great misunderstanding and confusion, and define somewhere what you mean by it. matthieuh's statement "I meant only what I wrote" is really not that, it presupposes that we speak the same language. And we don't. > mathieuh is very much a leftist, and likely considers Mandela to be the same. I also consider Mandela a leftist. This is due to the fact that his political party, the ANC, was in alliance with the South African Communist Party, and produced the Freedom charter http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=72 http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=72 (see particularly nationalisation advocated in the section "The People Shall Share in the Country`s Wealth"). So it's not really a subjective matter, it's historic fact.
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > I'm still not 100% sure if mathieuh (and you) are using the word "liberal" to mean "left" or "not left". I think, in the sense used in the post at issue: "Left":"Liberal"::Bolshevik:Menshevik So liberal is to the left of Center but to the right of Left.
      - cdash 13y ago
        Yes, in the US you must also consider the fact that center would actually be described right wing everywhere else. So you can see why a some leftists would deride so called liberals seeing them as fake leftist.
    - Crito 13y ago
      I believe the way mathieuh is using the word "liberal", a liberal would be under the general umbrella of leftism, or at least presents itself that way, but has interests that are not compatible/aligned with other brands of leftism, or the tactics employed by other leftists. So in more concrete terms, mathieuh thinks that liberals oppose violent resistance, instead insisting on forms of nonviolent resistance such as civil disobedience (perhaps even when that proves ineffective). Liberals, wanting to claim Mandel as one of their own, "rewrite history" to make Mandel align with nonviolent resistance in a more strict way. I believe mathieuh views liberalism as the enemy in the same way a Lamborghini owner might rage at a minivan in the fast lane. That is being a bit uncharitable though. (I am trying hard not to inject my own opinion on what liberalism and leftism are; I am trying to explain how mathieuh is using these words, while remaining relatively charitable to his point of view. As such, I may be incorrect about what mathieuh thinks but the things I think he thinks might be correct. Similarly, I might be correct about what he thinks, but the things that he thinks may be incorrect. It would be best if he just gave a clear explanation of what he thinks...)

SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago

> You should be aware that the left is vehemently against liberalism What does that statement even mean?

md224 13y ago
This might help clarify, the semantics can be a bit confusing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States#American_versus_European_use_of_the_term_.22liberalism.22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United...
Crito 13y ago
Much of this terminology is muddled, particularly in America, which makes this difficult to talk about in a clear manner, but my understanding is that some leftists believe that liberals stand in the way of the true reform that leftist's want, and often take credit for the achievements of leftists to boot. (Perhaps it is easier to consider that right wingers and conservatives are not necessarily the same thing, and can very easily be in conflict with each other. I'm not entirely sure if that helps..) In this instance, it seems to me that mathieuh is very much a leftist, and likely considers Mandela to be the same. Certainly he seems to approve of what Mandela did (I think several people here are misinterpreting what mathieuh has said as criticism of Mandela). He thinks that liberals are attempting to co-opt Mandela as one of their own and apply ideologies associated with liberalism (nonviolence as an ends of its own) to Mandela, even if those associations are not grounded in history. In doing this, they obscure Mandela's true leftist ideologies, which were exceedingly successful. By rewriting leftist victories as liberal victories, diminishing the perceived value of leftist techniques, they present a threat to leftists.
- SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
  > some leftists believe that liberals stand in the way I'm still not 100% sure if mathieuh (and you) are using the word "liberal" to mean "left" or "not left". I first assumed "left" but he's not making much sense that way. I suggest that if you insist on using that word, be aware for the potential for great misunderstanding and confusion, and define somewhere what you mean by it. matthieuh's statement "I meant only what I wrote" is really not that, it presupposes that we speak the same language. And we don't. > mathieuh is very much a leftist, and likely considers Mandela to be the same. I also consider Mandela a leftist. This is due to the fact that his political party, the ANC, was in alliance with the South African Communist Party, and produced the Freedom charter http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=72 http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=72 (see particularly nationalisation advocated in the section "The People Shall Share in the Country`s Wealth"). So it's not really a subjective matter, it's historic fact.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > I'm still not 100% sure if mathieuh (and you) are using the word "liberal" to mean "left" or "not left". I think, in the sense used in the post at issue: "Left":"Liberal"::Bolshevik:Menshevik So liberal is to the left of Center but to the right of Left.
    - cdash 13y ago
      Yes, in the US you must also consider the fact that center would actually be described right wing everywhere else. So you can see why a some leftists would deride so called liberals seeing them as fake leftist.
  - Crito 13y ago
    I believe the way mathieuh is using the word "liberal", a liberal would be under the general umbrella of leftism, or at least presents itself that way, but has interests that are not compatible/aligned with other brands of leftism, or the tactics employed by other leftists. So in more concrete terms, mathieuh thinks that liberals oppose violent resistance, instead insisting on forms of nonviolent resistance such as civil disobedience (perhaps even when that proves ineffective). Liberals, wanting to claim Mandel as one of their own, "rewrite history" to make Mandel align with nonviolent resistance in a more strict way. I believe mathieuh views liberalism as the enemy in the same way a Lamborghini owner might rage at a minivan in the fast lane. That is being a bit uncharitable though. (I am trying hard not to inject my own opinion on what liberalism and leftism are; I am trying to explain how mathieuh is using these words, while remaining relatively charitable to his point of view. As such, I may be incorrect about what mathieuh thinks but the things I think he thinks might be correct. Similarly, I might be correct about what he thinks, but the things that he thinks may be incorrect. It would be best if he just gave a clear explanation of what he thinks...)