6 ms·

He had to include the word "liberals". In other words, excluding every one else. Given the tone of the use of the word liberal and the unfounded accusation, its

by alan_cx 13y ago

He had to include the word "liberals". In other words, excluding every one else. Given the tone of the use of the word liberal and the unfounded accusation, its reasonable to assume he is a right wing type, and there for means to exclude the right from the accusation. There for he must be suggesting the "liberals" alone are likely to try to rewrite history, because, you know, the right would never do such a thing... From here in the UK, Americans sneering the word liberal is a give away for a right wing nut job. Glen Beck etc. To us, well, me at least, it is highly amusing that so called right wing patriots wet them selves over the USA which is supposed to champion liberty, while using the word liberal as some sort of insult. Mean while, the right seem to actually support liberty in gun ownership etc. Very strange. Actually, very funny.

mathieuh 13y ago
I am neither a right-winger nor an American. I am very much left-wing. You should be aware that the left is vehemently against liberalism, as it presents such a rosy view of current society that it reduces the terrible things happening to being some floaty idea that doesn't apply to Me. As liberal media are doing currently by saying that Mandela was just a peaceful protestor.
- SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
  > You should be aware that the left is vehemently against liberalism What does that statement even mean?
  - md224 13y ago
    This might help clarify, the semantics can be a bit confusing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States#American_versus_European_use_of_the_term_.22liberalism.22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United...
  - Crito 13y ago
    Much of this terminology is muddled, particularly in America, which makes this difficult to talk about in a clear manner, but my understanding is that some leftists believe that liberals stand in the way of the true reform that leftist's want, and often take credit for the achievements of leftists to boot. (Perhaps it is easier to consider that right wingers and conservatives are not necessarily the same thing, and can very easily be in conflict with each other. I'm not entirely sure if that helps..) In this instance, it seems to me that mathieuh is very much a leftist, and likely considers Mandela to be the same. Certainly he seems to approve of what Mandela did (I think several people here are misinterpreting what mathieuh has said as criticism of Mandela). He thinks that liberals are attempting to co-opt Mandela as one of their own and apply ideologies associated with liberalism (nonviolence as an ends of its own) to Mandela, even if those associations are not grounded in history. In doing this, they obscure Mandela's true leftist ideologies, which were exceedingly successful. By rewriting leftist victories as liberal victories, diminishing the perceived value of leftist techniques, they present a threat to leftists.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
      > some leftists believe that liberals stand in the way I'm still not 100% sure if mathieuh (and you) are using the word "liberal" to mean "left" or "not left". I first assumed "left" but he's not making much sense that way. I suggest that if you insist on using that word, be aware for the potential for great misunderstanding and confusion, and define somewhere what you mean by it. matthieuh's statement "I meant only what I wrote" is really not that, it presupposes that we speak the same language. And we don't. > mathieuh is very much a leftist, and likely considers Mandela to be the same. I also consider Mandela a leftist. This is due to the fact that his political party, the ANC, was in alliance with the South African Communist Party, and produced the Freedom charter http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=72 http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=72 (see particularly nationalisation advocated in the section "The People Shall Share in the Country`s Wealth"). So it's not really a subjective matter, it's historic fact.
      - dragonwriter 13y ago
        > I'm still not 100% sure if mathieuh (and you) are using the word "liberal" to mean "left" or "not left". I think, in the sense used in the post at issue: "Left":"Liberal"::Bolshevik:Menshevik So liberal is to the left of Center but to the right of Left.

by alan_cx 13y ago

mathieuh 13y ago

I am neither a right-winger nor an American. I am very much left-wing. You should be aware that the left is vehemently against liberalism, as it presents such a rosy view of current society that it reduces the terrible things happening to being some floaty idea that doesn't apply to Me. As liberal media are doing currently by saying that Mandela was just a peaceful protestor.

SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
> You should be aware that the left is vehemently against liberalism What does that statement even mean?
- md224 13y ago
  This might help clarify, the semantics can be a bit confusing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States#American_versus_European_use_of_the_term_.22liberalism.22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United...
- Crito 13y ago
  Much of this terminology is muddled, particularly in America, which makes this difficult to talk about in a clear manner, but my understanding is that some leftists believe that liberals stand in the way of the true reform that leftist's want, and often take credit for the achievements of leftists to boot. (Perhaps it is easier to consider that right wingers and conservatives are not necessarily the same thing, and can very easily be in conflict with each other. I'm not entirely sure if that helps..) In this instance, it seems to me that mathieuh is very much a leftist, and likely considers Mandela to be the same. Certainly he seems to approve of what Mandela did (I think several people here are misinterpreting what mathieuh has said as criticism of Mandela). He thinks that liberals are attempting to co-opt Mandela as one of their own and apply ideologies associated with liberalism (nonviolence as an ends of its own) to Mandela, even if those associations are not grounded in history. In doing this, they obscure Mandela's true leftist ideologies, which were exceedingly successful. By rewriting leftist victories as liberal victories, diminishing the perceived value of leftist techniques, they present a threat to leftists.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
    > some leftists believe that liberals stand in the way I'm still not 100% sure if mathieuh (and you) are using the word "liberal" to mean "left" or "not left". I first assumed "left" but he's not making much sense that way. I suggest that if you insist on using that word, be aware for the potential for great misunderstanding and confusion, and define somewhere what you mean by it. matthieuh's statement "I meant only what I wrote" is really not that, it presupposes that we speak the same language. And we don't. > mathieuh is very much a leftist, and likely considers Mandela to be the same. I also consider Mandela a leftist. This is due to the fact that his political party, the ANC, was in alliance with the South African Communist Party, and produced the Freedom charter http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=72 http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=72 (see particularly nationalisation advocated in the section "The People Shall Share in the Country`s Wealth"). So it's not really a subjective matter, it's historic fact.
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > I'm still not 100% sure if mathieuh (and you) are using the word "liberal" to mean "left" or "not left". I think, in the sense used in the post at issue: "Left":"Liberal"::Bolshevik:Menshevik So liberal is to the left of Center but to the right of Left.