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Recommended follow-up reading - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp I know m

Recommended follow-up reading - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp I know most of you heard of it, but, seriously, take a moment and look a bit closer.

Finster 13y ago
Really. You're trying to compare Gitmo to North Korean prison camps? Certainly, Gitmo is no picnic, but I have to question if you actually RTFA.
- 27182818284 13y ago
  The trend is what is disturbing. As time moved over the last 10 years they got closer rather than farther apart.
  - NoPiece 13y ago
    How so? All but 164 detainees have been released from Guantanamo. They were never close, and Guanatanamo is slowly being shut down.
    - BrandonMarc 13y ago
      While true, one reason the U.S. doesn't need Gitmo so much anymore is we're still going after and finding the same people, but now they are executed with drones, rather than captured.
      - pekk 13y ago
        If one of the parties had allowed it, we could have dissolved Gitmo years ago
    - 27182818284 13y ago
      Hopeless suicides, infinite detention, torture (by the definitions of lots of countries other than the one employing the guards), etc. Let's say N. Korea camps are "boiling." It wasn't that Gitmo is boiling like N. Korea, but we did see a nasty trend of turning up the heat on the stove rather than cooling things down or keeping things room temperature. The trend was nasty enough that as soon as a new POTUS got in office an executive order was signed within days—January 22 http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ClosureOfGuantanamoDetentionFacilities http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ClosureOfGuantana... , even if we still haven't worked out the execution of that order for various political reasons.
- clamour 13y ago
  You're right, the North Korean prison camps by all accounts seem worse, but the Wikipedia article actually contained a lot of information that was new to me. For example... In 2004 Spc. Sean Baker, a soldier posing as a prisoner during training exercises at the camp, was beaten so severely that he suffered a brain injury and seizures. How many deaths are swept under the rug at places like Gitmo or at CIA black sites? If they're beating people to the point of brain injury, I'm guessing it happens.
refurb 13y ago
I see one big difference... Starting 16 November 2009, as enabled by the Supreme Court ruling in Boumediene, dozens of detainees began to use habeas corpus petitions in U.S. courts to seek freedom from the Guantánamo Bay prison. In some cases, they testified by video from the U.S. naval base in Cuba. Fifteen Federal judges have found the government's evidence against 30 detainees wanting and ordered their release. That number was expected to rise as the judges were scheduled to hear challenges from dozens more prisoners. How many North Korean prisoners get any kind of hearing?
- NoPiece 13y ago
  There are two many big differences to enumerate, but a couple more important ones: Guantanamo: "As of August 2013, 164 detainees remain at Guantanamo" North Korea: "When Shin worked in the garment factory and accidentally dropped a sewing machine, the foreman hacked off his right middle finger just above the first knuckle as punishment" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaechon_internment_camp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaechon_internment_camp
  - cma 13y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Guantanamo_Bay_detention_deaths http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Guantanamo_Bay_detenti...
strlen 13y ago
I am all for closing Guantanamo (as well as stopping the horrible brutality in US prisons -- which is a much more pressing, but more "hidden" problem) but it's counter productive to compare US to a totalitarian regime. You are still free to leave United States, to hum a tune from a counter-regime movie, etc... without being thrown in Guantanamo. Many prisoners are also released from Guantanamo. It is legal to openly run a presidential campaign -- and win -- promising to close Guantanamo (but alas, it is not illegal to fail to follow through on this core promise). In fact, the danger of United States becoming totalitarian is low: creeping authoritarianism, police state tactics, "law and order" used to justify horrid prison conditions and insane sentences, "reasons of state" blackholes (like aforementioned Gitmo), are real dangers. Plurality of the world is governed by either hybrid or authoritarian regimes (which most usually serve to satisfy their rulers' thirst of money and power); North Korea, a few former USSR republics, and perhaps areas of failed states controlled by totalitarian factions are the only unambiguously totalitarian states. However, by hinting at moral equivalence between United States and North Korea, you end up serving those advocating this creeping authoritarianism: they can now present outlandish arguments that since those opposed to Guantanamo "apologize" for North Korea (note, I am not accusing you of this -- you are not saying North Korea is justified in what they do, but this could easily be spun as such!), advancement of their goals is advancement of North Korea's, Taliban's, etc... goals. I'm saying this as somebody who feels very strong about torture being an unconditional and absolute moral wrong, sees Guantanamo as representing a very evil and dangerous tendency, and also sees current prison conditions in US as something that -- in the future -- will be seen in the same light as the breaking wheel and the torture rack. Comments like this do not help; just don't do this -- instead, speak up for human rights of all individuals (whether or not their testimony looks like it "serves US agenda" or "helps the terrorists"). [Edit: the big reason I feel strongly about this is that I came from former USSR myself. I remember many Americans, especially those who were unhappy with US behaviour during Cold War would always speak about how US was slighting "my guys", "my country", and being sorry for break up of USSR. They were surprised why I would speak so negatively about "my country" -- as if government and country were equivalent, Cold War was a morally neutral football match, and as if my country wasn't one my family willing adopted and chose to make their home, that is the US.]
- cup 13y ago
nether 13y ago
Big difference between US and DPRK is that we have heard of it, and are free to criticize it without repercussions.
- strathmeyer 13y ago
  Some of aren't satisfied with just the illusion of freedom. We care about not just the American citizens that Obama is killing with drones, but human life all over the world.
- fennecfoxen 13y ago
  Also, unlike North Korean camps, they generally don't send young children to Guantanamo Bay because of their parents' political crimes (real or invented).
  - subsystem 13y ago
    Well... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr
    - fennecfoxen 13y ago
      Omar is at least alleged to have actually committed war crimes, and he was almost 16. Feel free to characterize the legitimacy of his treatment, but he's no Shin Dong-hyuk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk
bananacurve 13y ago
Your whataboutism ends up defending NK, but at least you get a lot of up votes.
scotty79 13y ago
Guantanamo is actually sign of USA becoming more civilised. Less than 50 years ago US military armed formations partied harder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program More akin to their North Korean counterparts. Then again NK is developmentally delayed by about 50 years... Maybe around 2063 they will have their Guantanamo an will be abhorred by it. On more serious note... When could we deploy few hundred thousands microdrones there and assasinate everyone who gives the orders?

Finster 13y ago

Really. You're trying to compare Gitmo to North Korean prison camps? Certainly, Gitmo is no picnic, but I have to question if you actually RTFA.

27182818284 13y ago
The trend is what is disturbing. As time moved over the last 10 years they got closer rather than farther apart.
- NoPiece 13y ago
  How so? All but 164 detainees have been released from Guantanamo. They were never close, and Guanatanamo is slowly being shut down.
  - BrandonMarc 13y ago
    While true, one reason the U.S. doesn't need Gitmo so much anymore is we're still going after and finding the same people, but now they are executed with drones, rather than captured.
    - pekk 13y ago
      If one of the parties had allowed it, we could have dissolved Gitmo years ago
  - 27182818284 13y ago
    Hopeless suicides, infinite detention, torture (by the definitions of lots of countries other than the one employing the guards), etc. Let's say N. Korea camps are "boiling." It wasn't that Gitmo is boiling like N. Korea, but we did see a nasty trend of turning up the heat on the stove rather than cooling things down or keeping things room temperature. The trend was nasty enough that as soon as a new POTUS got in office an executive order was signed within days—January 22 http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ClosureOfGuantanamoDetentionFacilities http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ClosureOfGuantana... , even if we still haven't worked out the execution of that order for various political reasons.
clamour 13y ago
You're right, the North Korean prison camps by all accounts seem worse, but the Wikipedia article actually contained a lot of information that was new to me. For example... In 2004 Spc. Sean Baker, a soldier posing as a prisoner during training exercises at the camp, was beaten so severely that he suffered a brain injury and seizures. How many deaths are swept under the rug at places like Gitmo or at CIA black sites? If they're beating people to the point of brain injury, I'm guessing it happens.

refurb 13y ago

I see one big difference... Starting 16 November 2009, as enabled by the Supreme Court ruling in Boumediene, dozens of detainees began to use habeas corpus petitions in U.S. courts to seek freedom from the Guantánamo Bay prison. In some cases, they testified by video from the U.S. naval base in Cuba. Fifteen Federal judges have found the government's evidence against 30 detainees wanting and ordered their release. That number was expected to rise as the judges were scheduled to hear challenges from dozens more prisoners. How many North Korean prisoners get any kind of hearing?

NoPiece 13y ago
There are two many big differences to enumerate, but a couple more important ones: Guantanamo: "As of August 2013, 164 detainees remain at Guantanamo" North Korea: "When Shin worked in the garment factory and accidentally dropped a sewing machine, the foreman hacked off his right middle finger just above the first knuckle as punishment" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaechon_internment_camp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaechon_internment_camp
- cma 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Guantanamo_Bay_detention_deaths http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Guantanamo_Bay_detenti...

strlen 13y ago

I am all for closing Guantanamo (as well as stopping the horrible brutality in US prisons -- which is a much more pressing, but more "hidden" problem) but it's counter productive to compare US to a totalitarian regime. You are still free to leave United States, to hum a tune from a counter-regime movie, etc... without being thrown in Guantanamo. Many prisoners are also released from Guantanamo. It is legal to openly run a presidential campaign -- and win -- promising to close Guantanamo (but alas, it is not illegal to fail to follow through on this core promise). In fact, the danger of United States becoming totalitarian is low: creeping authoritarianism, police state tactics, "law and order" used to justify horrid prison conditions and insane sentences, "reasons of state" blackholes (like aforementioned Gitmo), are real dangers. Plurality of the world is governed by either hybrid or authoritarian regimes (which most usually serve to satisfy their rulers' thirst of money and power); North Korea, a few former USSR republics, and perhaps areas of failed states controlled by totalitarian factions are the only unambiguously totalitarian states. However, by hinting at moral equivalence between United States and North Korea, you end up serving those advocating this creeping authoritarianism: they can now present outlandish arguments that since those opposed to Guantanamo "apologize" for North Korea (note, I am not accusing you of this -- you are not saying North Korea is justified in what they do, but this could easily be spun as such!), advancement of their goals is advancement of North Korea's, Taliban's, etc... goals. I'm saying this as somebody who feels very strong about torture being an unconditional and absolute moral wrong, sees Guantanamo as representing a very evil and dangerous tendency, and also sees current prison conditions in US as something that -- in the future -- will be seen in the same light as the breaking wheel and the torture rack. Comments like this do not help; just don't do this -- instead, speak up for human rights of all individuals (whether or not their testimony looks like it "serves US agenda" or "helps the terrorists"). [Edit: the big reason I feel strongly about this is that I came from former USSR myself. I remember many Americans, especially those who were unhappy with US behaviour during Cold War would always speak about how US was slighting "my guys", "my country", and being sorry for break up of USSR. They were surprised why I would speak so negatively about "my country" -- as if government and country were equivalent, Cold War was a morally neutral football match, and as if my country wasn't one my family willing adopted and chose to make their home, that is the US.]

cup 13y ago

nether 13y ago

Big difference between US and DPRK is that we have heard of it, and are free to criticize it without repercussions.

strathmeyer 13y ago
Some of aren't satisfied with just the illusion of freedom. We care about not just the American citizens that Obama is killing with drones, but human life all over the world.
fennecfoxen 13y ago
Also, unlike North Korean camps, they generally don't send young children to Guantanamo Bay because of their parents' political crimes (real or invented).
- subsystem 13y ago
  Well... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr
  - fennecfoxen 13y ago
    Omar is at least alleged to have actually committed war crimes, and he was almost 16. Feel free to characterize the legitimacy of his treatment, but he's no Shin Dong-hyuk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk

bananacurve 13y ago

Your whataboutism ends up defending NK, but at least you get a lot of up votes.

scotty79 13y ago

Guantanamo is actually sign of USA becoming more civilised. Less than 50 years ago US military armed formations partied harder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program More akin to their North Korean counterparts. Then again NK is developmentally delayed by about 50 years... Maybe around 2063 they will have their Guantanamo an will be abhorred by it. On more serious note... When could we deploy few hundred thousands microdrones there and assasinate everyone who gives the orders?