4 ms·

The work ethic of MJ - amazing tales from the studio by his engineers

181 points by imajes 17y ago

imajes 17y ago
look out for stuff from resonater and robmix - totally cool stuff about how they cut some of his most famous work together.
- madh 17y ago
  yea these stories are amazing.
GavinB 17y ago
If you're interested in audio recording or mixing, gearslutz is the place. I haven't posted there in a while but there's a lot in common with HN. This thread is recent but there's some great older stuff that I recall. Check out this thread from Bruce Swedien - http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruce-swedien/83165-seven-people-have-had-profound-effect-what-i-have-done-recording.html http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruce-swedien/83165-seven-peo... (scroll down for the bit about MJ) Edit: Here's a story from Bruce about recording and mixing Billie Jean - http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruce-swedien/84587-real-story-billie-jean.html http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruce-swedien/84587-real-stor...
- imajes 17y ago
  Yeah- the newer thread keeps referring to Swedien's work - that's another great thread. Thanks for finding it!
- michael_dorfman 17y ago
  The "Billie Jean" story definitely has a lesson for software development.
- mattjung 17y ago
  The Billie-Jean-Story sounds very familiar to me. Improving things a thousand time until you understand that the first version,closest to the original idea, was the best...
catch23 17y ago
> At one point Michael was angry at one of the producers on the project because he was treating everyone terribly. Rather than create a scene or fire the guy, Michael called him to his office/lounge and one of the security guys threw a pie in his face. No further action was needed . . . . . Interesting management style. We should do that at our startup :-)
schammy 17y ago
Good stuff. I found the bit about how he was a "huge fan" of NIN's downward spiral interesting, since a few lines above it said he refused to curse. Someone who's against cursing doesn't seem like they could like a NIN record. He must have just really liked the engineering of the album. I'll hand it to the team that made it, downward spiral is one of the coolest sounding records I've ever heard.
- rms 17y ago
  Check out the relatively obscure MJ song Morphine from Blood on the Dance Floor, which is decidedly influenced by Reznor. Morphine is one of those eerie songs where Michael practically predicts his own downfall. It's incredibly sad.
  - frig 17y ago
    There's a lot of reznor-sound in 'they don't care about us also', at least to my ears.
jacquesm 17y ago
I fail to see the relevance for HN but it was a nice read anyway... too much mj coverage alltogether.
- TrevorJ 17y ago
  I agree that it is a stretch.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  -4 already eh ? Did I offend someone ?
  - gabrielroth 17y ago
    Yes, by violating this guideline: "Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link." http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - asdlfj2sd33 17y ago
      Over time this place has become much more general and wide in scope. Some people cherish this, some don't. But it is interesting that those that don't, can only flag and shut up. No discussion of "is this needed here" is tolerated. But dozens of MJ stories are perfectly OK.
      - jacquesm 17y ago
        Exactly. It seems that a knee jerk reaction ('flag') is more in line with expectations than any kind of moderate reaction to sense whether or not this kind of article belongs here. As I said it was an interesting read, which nuanced my viewpoint. The bury brigade seems to be more than content to punish any kind of 'non adherence to the rules'. That makes it simple for me, next time I'll flag, interesting read or not. A well thought out response to some question that gets relatively little traction here will gain you one or two points, but a 'faux pas' in a popular article that doesn't really belong here will get you -10 in total.
danbmil99 17y ago
I was an audio engineer in the 80's, worked with the Buttholes and De La Soul, and hundreds of artists not lucky enough to be remembered. Many of them sucked, but almost all of them worked their asses off. A few of them were brilliant (the Butthole Surfers, IMSHO). I like some of MJ's music, but frankly I don't think he was a genius songwriter. Great performer, and had some nice hit songs. I think something is gone with that era, in that now it's just the artist and his/her computer. No big setup, no 'control room', no tape assist punching in the vocals. No girlfriends snoring on the couch. And obviously, no band playing everything at once (that wasn't even really going on by the time I was working, though you did do things like bass/drums/guitar together with a rough vocal if it made sense for the song). Like stained glass and the Saturn V, the art of making these kinds of records is going to be lost forever.
- sterwill 17y ago
  Stained Glass and the Saturn V would be a great band name.
- pie 17y ago
  I can only feebly imagine what it must have been like to do studio work with the Butthole Surfers in the 80s. Which recordings did you do?
- newsio 17y ago
  I worked in a London recording studio in the early 90s. One thing many people may not be aware of is how slow the process of recording and mixing is in a studio setting (we didn't do mastering). There was unfortunately a lot of down time for people who might be needed in the studio for a certain task but had to wait around for other people to finish their tasks. This was also a transition period from the analog to the digital era. Analog gear was still used (such as the tape decks) but sequencers, compressors, electronic gates and other tools were also filling up the racks in the back of the studio. I have to say that they took away a lot of the spontaneity of recording music. Everything had to be matched to a click track and many takes and overdubs were required to get things "perfect". For dance music or songs with a heavy electronic component, this doesn't surprise me, but for rock it seems a little ... fake. IMHO some of the best studio recordings were the ones that were done "live" with minimal overdubs, such as Husker Du's Zen Arcade and stuff from the early days of rock and roll. And good live performances can really show the soul of a band that may not be apparent in complex, layered studio recordings. I am thinking of The Who's Live at Leeds or that DVD/CD of Queen performing in Montreal in 1981. I saw Soundgarden put on an amazing performance once that really moved me in a way that was different than listening to their great studio records.
norimaki 17y ago
In light of how embattled Jackson was by the media and forgotten by the public until recently, it's interesting to see how his death has changed the discussion - words like 'freak' and 'pedophile' replaced with 'genius' and 'work ethic'.
- Goladus 17y ago
  He wasn't forgotten, it's just that people paid attention to him in their own way in their own time. (He had been in the news for the London concerts, after all). His death gives everyone a chance to share thoughts and pay attention all at once.
- enneff 17y ago
  I've always discussed Jackson in those latter terms, and so have many with whom I've talked of him. Not everyone is blindsided by the tabloid media.
  - electromagnetic 17y ago
    Obviously so many people were blind-sided by the tabloids the first time. He hasn't been convicted of any crime, over 70 police officers searched his home and found nothing, but obviously a lack of conviction doesn't mean anything to you or the media conviction he was given. The man obviously had a bizarre personal life, in fact his life was outright bizarre from young childhood when their father forced them to perform. So I'm sorry, but when parents allowed their kids to stay at his house unsupervised, the parents should have been under criminal investigation too. No conviction, no crime. It's essentially how the whole innocent until proven guilty system works, but obviously you don't care that a man hasn't been charged for paedophilia, you just want to call an innocent man one anyway. Kudos on only believing the bad things about people in the media and believing none of the good things.
    - enneff 17y ago
      Are you implying that I thought he was a paedophile? My comment expressed the exact opposite sentiment. I've always believed him to be a genius and a gentleman, and everyone I've met who has worked with the guy has corroborated that.
jacoblyles 17y ago
It always warms my heart when the internet produces a relevant and interesting bit of original content. Sometimes I think this whole enterprise might actually have value.
parenthesis 17y ago
This is a really interesting in-depth piece about the recording of 'Black or White' (and the Dangerous album, in general): http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug04/articles/classictracks.htm http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug04/articles/classictracks...
dionidium 17y ago
Along those lines, Quincy and Bruce used to have a saying while they were mixing. One of them would turn to the other and say, "I think we're mixing past the money", which meant...okay, now we're no longer improving it...it was better a mix or two ago, and the mixing would stop. "Mixing past the money" perfectly describes a feeling I often have while refactoring code. What a perfect phrase!
kadavy 17y ago
What an awesome thread, thanks for this. It's nice to hear some memories straight from someone who worked with him, rather than filtered through the media.
cema 17y ago
This was indeed interesting and enriching. (And I am not a fan of MJ!)
mlLK 17y ago
Sure as hell beats the crap out of TV Guide's coverage for remembering Michael.
sandGorgon 17y ago
Once, while we were taking a break, I think we were actually watching the OJ chase on TV, there was a news program talking about him being in Europe with some little boy. I was sitting next to the guy while the news is making this crap up. He just looked at me and said this is what I have to deal with. http://www.gearslutz.com/board/4325168-post15.html http://www.gearslutz.com/board/4325168-post15.html

181 points by imajes 17y ago

look out for stuff from resonater and robmix - totally cool stuff about how they cut some of his most famous work together.

madh 17y ago
yea these stories are amazing.

GavinB 17y ago

If you're interested in audio recording or mixing, gearslutz is the place. I haven't posted there in a while but there's a lot in common with HN. This thread is recent but there's some great older stuff that I recall. Check out this thread from Bruce Swedien - http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruce-swedien/83165-seven-people-have-had-profound-effect-what-i-have-done-recording.html http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruce-swedien/83165-seven-peo... (scroll down for the bit about MJ) Edit: Here's a story from Bruce about recording and mixing Billie Jean - http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruce-swedien/84587-real-story-billie-jean.html http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bruce-swedien/84587-real-stor...

imajes 17y ago
Yeah- the newer thread keeps referring to Swedien's work - that's another great thread. Thanks for finding it!
michael_dorfman 17y ago
The "Billie Jean" story definitely has a lesson for software development.
mattjung 17y ago
The Billie-Jean-Story sounds very familiar to me. Improving things a thousand time until you understand that the first version,closest to the original idea, was the best...

catch23 17y ago

> At one point Michael was angry at one of the producers on the project because he was treating everyone terribly. Rather than create a scene or fire the guy, Michael called him to his office/lounge and one of the security guys threw a pie in his face. No further action was needed . . . . . Interesting management style. We should do that at our startup :-)

schammy 17y ago

Good stuff. I found the bit about how he was a "huge fan" of NIN's downward spiral interesting, since a few lines above it said he refused to curse. Someone who's against cursing doesn't seem like they could like a NIN record. He must have just really liked the engineering of the album. I'll hand it to the team that made it, downward spiral is one of the coolest sounding records I've ever heard.

rms 17y ago
Check out the relatively obscure MJ song Morphine from Blood on the Dance Floor, which is decidedly influenced by Reznor. Morphine is one of those eerie songs where Michael practically predicts his own downfall. It's incredibly sad.
- frig 17y ago
  There's a lot of reznor-sound in 'they don't care about us also', at least to my ears.

jacquesm 17y ago

I fail to see the relevance for HN but it was a nice read anyway... too much mj coverage alltogether.

TrevorJ 17y ago
I agree that it is a stretch.
jacquesm 17y ago
-4 already eh ? Did I offend someone ?
- gabrielroth 17y ago
  Yes, by violating this guideline: "Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link." http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - asdlfj2sd33 17y ago
    Over time this place has become much more general and wide in scope. Some people cherish this, some don't. But it is interesting that those that don't, can only flag and shut up. No discussion of "is this needed here" is tolerated. But dozens of MJ stories are perfectly OK.
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      Exactly. It seems that a knee jerk reaction ('flag') is more in line with expectations than any kind of moderate reaction to sense whether or not this kind of article belongs here. As I said it was an interesting read, which nuanced my viewpoint. The bury brigade seems to be more than content to punish any kind of 'non adherence to the rules'. That makes it simple for me, next time I'll flag, interesting read or not. A well thought out response to some question that gets relatively little traction here will gain you one or two points, but a 'faux pas' in a popular article that doesn't really belong here will get you -10 in total.

danbmil99 17y ago

I was an audio engineer in the 80's, worked with the Buttholes and De La Soul, and hundreds of artists not lucky enough to be remembered. Many of them sucked, but almost all of them worked their asses off. A few of them were brilliant (the Butthole Surfers, IMSHO). I like some of MJ's music, but frankly I don't think he was a genius songwriter. Great performer, and had some nice hit songs. I think something is gone with that era, in that now it's just the artist and his/her computer. No big setup, no 'control room', no tape assist punching in the vocals. No girlfriends snoring on the couch. And obviously, no band playing everything at once (that wasn't even really going on by the time I was working, though you did do things like bass/drums/guitar together with a rough vocal if it made sense for the song). Like stained glass and the Saturn V, the art of making these kinds of records is going to be lost forever.

sterwill 17y ago
Stained Glass and the Saturn V would be a great band name.
pie 17y ago
I can only feebly imagine what it must have been like to do studio work with the Butthole Surfers in the 80s. Which recordings did you do?
newsio 17y ago
I worked in a London recording studio in the early 90s. One thing many people may not be aware of is how slow the process of recording and mixing is in a studio setting (we didn't do mastering). There was unfortunately a lot of down time for people who might be needed in the studio for a certain task but had to wait around for other people to finish their tasks. This was also a transition period from the analog to the digital era. Analog gear was still used (such as the tape decks) but sequencers, compressors, electronic gates and other tools were also filling up the racks in the back of the studio. I have to say that they took away a lot of the spontaneity of recording music. Everything had to be matched to a click track and many takes and overdubs were required to get things "perfect". For dance music or songs with a heavy electronic component, this doesn't surprise me, but for rock it seems a little ... fake. IMHO some of the best studio recordings were the ones that were done "live" with minimal overdubs, such as Husker Du's Zen Arcade and stuff from the early days of rock and roll. And good live performances can really show the soul of a band that may not be apparent in complex, layered studio recordings. I am thinking of The Who's Live at Leeds or that DVD/CD of Queen performing in Montreal in 1981. I saw Soundgarden put on an amazing performance once that really moved me in a way that was different than listening to their great studio records.

norimaki 17y ago

In light of how embattled Jackson was by the media and forgotten by the public until recently, it's interesting to see how his death has changed the discussion - words like 'freak' and 'pedophile' replaced with 'genius' and 'work ethic'.

Goladus 17y ago
He wasn't forgotten, it's just that people paid attention to him in their own way in their own time. (He had been in the news for the London concerts, after all). His death gives everyone a chance to share thoughts and pay attention all at once.
enneff 17y ago
I've always discussed Jackson in those latter terms, and so have many with whom I've talked of him. Not everyone is blindsided by the tabloid media.
- electromagnetic 17y ago
  Obviously so many people were blind-sided by the tabloids the first time. He hasn't been convicted of any crime, over 70 police officers searched his home and found nothing, but obviously a lack of conviction doesn't mean anything to you or the media conviction he was given. The man obviously had a bizarre personal life, in fact his life was outright bizarre from young childhood when their father forced them to perform. So I'm sorry, but when parents allowed their kids to stay at his house unsupervised, the parents should have been under criminal investigation too. No conviction, no crime. It's essentially how the whole innocent until proven guilty system works, but obviously you don't care that a man hasn't been charged for paedophilia, you just want to call an innocent man one anyway. Kudos on only believing the bad things about people in the media and believing none of the good things.
  - enneff 17y ago
    Are you implying that I thought he was a paedophile? My comment expressed the exact opposite sentiment. I've always believed him to be a genius and a gentleman, and everyone I've met who has worked with the guy has corroborated that.

jacoblyles 17y ago

It always warms my heart when the internet produces a relevant and interesting bit of original content. Sometimes I think this whole enterprise might actually have value.

parenthesis 17y ago

This is a really interesting in-depth piece about the recording of 'Black or White' (and the Dangerous album, in general): http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug04/articles/classictracks.htm http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug04/articles/classictracks...

dionidium 17y ago

Along those lines, Quincy and Bruce used to have a saying while they were mixing. One of them would turn to the other and say, "I think we're mixing past the money", which meant...okay, now we're no longer improving it...it was better a mix or two ago, and the mixing would stop. "Mixing past the money" perfectly describes a feeling I often have while refactoring code. What a perfect phrase!

kadavy 17y ago

What an awesome thread, thanks for this. It's nice to hear some memories straight from someone who worked with him, rather than filtered through the media.

cema 17y ago

This was indeed interesting and enriching. (And I am not a fan of MJ!)

mlLK 17y ago

Sure as hell beats the crap out of TV Guide's coverage for remembering Michael.

sandGorgon 17y ago

Once, while we were taking a break, I think we were actually watching the OJ chase on TV, there was a news program talking about him being in Europe with some little boy. I was sitting next to the guy while the news is making this crap up. He just looked at me and said this is what I have to deal with. http://www.gearslutz.com/board/4325168-post15.html http://www.gearslutz.com/board/4325168-post15.html