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Since 1925, in a voluntary ritual near the end of a Canadian engineering degree, almost-graduates swear an oath and, upon doing so, are given a small card and a

Since 1925, in a voluntary ritual near the end of a Canadian engineering degree, almost-graduates swear an oath and, upon doing so, are given a small card and a ring. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_of_the_Calling_of_an_Engineer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_of_the_Calling_of_an_Eng... I swore my oath more than 25 years ago and I still have the card in my wallet and the iron ring on the smallest finger of my working hand. A couple times a year, I pull out the card and read it. The oath reads: " I [worldvoyageur], in the presence of these my betters and my equals in my Calling, bind myself upon my Honour and Cold Iron, that, to the best of my knowledge and power, I will not henceforth suffer or pass, or be privy to the passing of, Bad Workmanship or Faulty Material in aught that concerns my works before mankind as an Engineer, or in my dealings with my own Soul before my Maker. MY TIME I will not refuse; my Thought I will not grudge; my Care I will not deny towards the honour, use, stability and perfection of any works to which I may be called to set my hand. MY FAIR WAGES for that work I will openly take. My Reputation in my Calling I will honourably guard; but I will in no way go about to compass or wrest judgement or gratification from any one with whom I may deal. And Further, I will early and warily strive my uttermost against professional jealousy or the belittling of my working colleagues in any field of their labour. FOR MY ASSURED FAILURES and derelictions, I ask pardon beforehand of my betters and my equals in my Calling here assembled; praying that in the hour of my temptations, weakness and weariness, the memory of this my Obligation and of the company before whom it was entered into, may return to aid, comfort and restrain. "

AsymetricCom 13y ago
tl;dr: how to be a good robot.
- bqe 13y ago
  You really think that taking an oath to be morally responsible for what you create and how you create it is being a robot? What a ridiculous thing to say.
  - AsymetricCom 13y ago
    Interesting how the wiki version of the "Obligation of the Engineer"^1 seems to speak toward being a good steward of technology, humanity and public resources where the oath the OP quotes is more focused on delivering a good product and being obligated to do so by your pay. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Engineer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Engineer
    - saraid216 13y ago
      Um. It talks about fair wages. How is that being obligated to do so by your pay?
      - AsymetricCom 13y ago
        It really depends on the context you read it in and how you define some of the key words.
        saraid216 13y ago
        So... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0
        AsymetricCom 13y ago
        So?
  - diydsp 13y ago
    An important note here: "Moral" does not refer to a singular set of values, behaviors or beliefs. It only refers to a moral system, any moral system. That is why that oath the PP carries around from morning till night is "moral", yet does nothing to encourage the larger ramifications of their work, such as ecology, human rights, etc. It's only one moral system, not one which respects others' rights (beyond efficacious contractual obligatoin), etc.
- _Adam 13y ago
  How to build a good robot, you mean. If you want to be a robot, you need a lot of practice. Walking that way is surprisingly hard.
- kyzyl 13y ago
  No. How to be a responsible engineer who doesn't get people killed. There are situations in life that require one to grow the fuck up, and being a professional engineer is one of them.
  - benched 13y ago
    This is the second time in as many days that I've seen a position reduced to "You're like a kid, and I'm like a grown-up." Cool argument. edit: I hereby coin The Argument From Maturity - of which the simplest prototype is, "Grow up."
    - kyzyl 13y ago
      Equivocating taking the engineer's oath with being a 'good robot' is childish, at best. I could also call it ignorant, or perhaps on its to criminal (if somebody truly believes that and puts it into practice). The engineer's oath towards ethical practice is precisely about not being a robot. We have specifications, years of technical brainwashing in school, and employment imperatives to make us into robots. Ethical practice is about having a watchdog thread in your brain that monitors your situation as an engineer. When a situation comes up where you could be a robot and do something stupid/illegal/dangerous/corrupt, the hope is that you can invoke your ethical/moral compass and make the right choice. Hopefully your compass is better calibrated than some unnamed folks in this thread. You want to talk about reducing a position simplistically? How about taking the backbone of a healthy engineering infrastructure, one which everybody relies on and must trust, and equating its core values to being a 'good robot'. I'm not reducing that person's position, I'm defending the position of the person who understands what they're talking about. So, yes, I reiterate to anyone who agrees with the OP: grow up. Or better yet, don't be a god damn engineer.
      - frenchy 13y ago
        > The engineer's oath towards ethical practice is precisely about not being a robot. How so? I didn't get that at all from the oath.
bargl 13y ago
We had a similar ritual at my school here in the USA. It was optional but many people did it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Engineer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Engineer
diydsp 13y ago
That's a great oath: Bypassing ethics completely, and swearing devotion to technical quality and not disturbing the porfessional social order, it underscores, bolds and italicizes TFA, which is nicely summarized in the caption under the picture which comes before any of its text: "Engineering ethics are mostly technical: how to design properly, how to not cut corners, and how to serve our clients well." Congratulations, you have utterly and perfectly- without wasting materials!- demonstrated why such articles are necessary. In case it's not crystal clear yet, an oath like that would do nothing to encourage an Aaron Swartz or an Ed Snowden.
- jff 13y ago
  What would you prefer? "I swear to uphold an ethical course of behavior as defined by the current zeitgeist of Hacker News"? It's clear that in delivering a sub-standard project, you're acting badly. But when you make a great product that may be used to harm others? Many of the creators of the atom bomb have expressed their belief that they did the right thing. I agree with them and would have no ethical problems working on the nuclear stockpile. Many people, however, would consider that extremely bad.
  - jb17 13y ago
    I think the point is not doing what you believe to be wrong. And to have ethics as a group, there needs to be some discussion on what's right and wrong. That might help you to (further) develop your own ethics, and also give you same backup from your peers if you decide to not do something.
twistedpair 13y ago
It's not just Canadian. I did it too for my engineer degrees in the US. My ring is in my dresser, but I still keep it in mind. I was being recruited hard by Picatinny Arsenal and didn't give them the light of day as I'm not keen on building weapons systems.
samograd 13y ago
Thanks. I lost my card years ago...but I don't think I forgot what it said. Maybe I can order a replacement to carry with me to show people at parties.

AsymetricCom 13y ago

tl;dr: how to be a good robot.

bqe 13y ago
You really think that taking an oath to be morally responsible for what you create and how you create it is being a robot? What a ridiculous thing to say.
- AsymetricCom 13y ago
  Interesting how the wiki version of the "Obligation of the Engineer"^1 seems to speak toward being a good steward of technology, humanity and public resources where the oath the OP quotes is more focused on delivering a good product and being obligated to do so by your pay. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Engineer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Engineer
  - saraid216 13y ago
    Um. It talks about fair wages. How is that being obligated to do so by your pay?
    - AsymetricCom 13y ago
      It really depends on the context you read it in and how you define some of the key words.
      - saraid216 13y ago
        So... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0
        AsymetricCom 13y ago
        So?
- diydsp 13y ago
  An important note here: "Moral" does not refer to a singular set of values, behaviors or beliefs. It only refers to a moral system, any moral system. That is why that oath the PP carries around from morning till night is "moral", yet does nothing to encourage the larger ramifications of their work, such as ecology, human rights, etc. It's only one moral system, not one which respects others' rights (beyond efficacious contractual obligatoin), etc.
_Adam 13y ago
How to build a good robot, you mean. If you want to be a robot, you need a lot of practice. Walking that way is surprisingly hard.
kyzyl 13y ago
No. How to be a responsible engineer who doesn't get people killed. There are situations in life that require one to grow the fuck up, and being a professional engineer is one of them.
- benched 13y ago
  This is the second time in as many days that I've seen a position reduced to "You're like a kid, and I'm like a grown-up." Cool argument. edit: I hereby coin The Argument From Maturity - of which the simplest prototype is, "Grow up."
  - kyzyl 13y ago
    Equivocating taking the engineer's oath with being a 'good robot' is childish, at best. I could also call it ignorant, or perhaps on its to criminal (if somebody truly believes that and puts it into practice). The engineer's oath towards ethical practice is precisely about not being a robot. We have specifications, years of technical brainwashing in school, and employment imperatives to make us into robots. Ethical practice is about having a watchdog thread in your brain that monitors your situation as an engineer. When a situation comes up where you could be a robot and do something stupid/illegal/dangerous/corrupt, the hope is that you can invoke your ethical/moral compass and make the right choice. Hopefully your compass is better calibrated than some unnamed folks in this thread. You want to talk about reducing a position simplistically? How about taking the backbone of a healthy engineering infrastructure, one which everybody relies on and must trust, and equating its core values to being a 'good robot'. I'm not reducing that person's position, I'm defending the position of the person who understands what they're talking about. So, yes, I reiterate to anyone who agrees with the OP: grow up. Or better yet, don't be a god damn engineer.
    - frenchy 13y ago
      > The engineer's oath towards ethical practice is precisely about not being a robot. How so? I didn't get that at all from the oath.

bargl 13y ago

We had a similar ritual at my school here in the USA. It was optional but many people did it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Engineer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Engineer

diydsp 13y ago

That's a great oath: Bypassing ethics completely, and swearing devotion to technical quality and not disturbing the porfessional social order, it underscores, bolds and italicizes TFA, which is nicely summarized in the caption under the picture which comes before any of its text: "Engineering ethics are mostly technical: how to design properly, how to not cut corners, and how to serve our clients well." Congratulations, you have utterly and perfectly- without wasting materials!- demonstrated why such articles are necessary. In case it's not crystal clear yet, an oath like that would do nothing to encourage an Aaron Swartz or an Ed Snowden.

jff 13y ago
What would you prefer? "I swear to uphold an ethical course of behavior as defined by the current zeitgeist of Hacker News"? It's clear that in delivering a sub-standard project, you're acting badly. But when you make a great product that may be used to harm others? Many of the creators of the atom bomb have expressed their belief that they did the right thing. I agree with them and would have no ethical problems working on the nuclear stockpile. Many people, however, would consider that extremely bad.
- jb17 13y ago
  I think the point is not doing what you believe to be wrong. And to have ethics as a group, there needs to be some discussion on what's right and wrong. That might help you to (further) develop your own ethics, and also give you same backup from your peers if you decide to not do something.

twistedpair 13y ago

It's not just Canadian. I did it too for my engineer degrees in the US. My ring is in my dresser, but I still keep it in mind. I was being recruited hard by Picatinny Arsenal and didn't give them the light of day as I'm not keen on building weapons systems.

samograd 13y ago

Thanks. I lost my card years ago...but I don't think I forgot what it said. Maybe I can order a replacement to carry with me to show people at parties.