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Did you go with Koryo Tours? I went the summer before last and it was undoubtedly the most interesting trip I've ever taken. It definitely humanized the people

Did you go with Koryo Tours? I went the summer before last and it was undoubtedly the most interesting trip I've ever taken. It definitely humanized the people who were previously thought of, just a little bit, as "the enemy." Waitresses giggling while singing karaoke, rowdy schoolboys asking for a picture, soldiers laughing as we smashed into them on the Funfair bumper cars, that sort of thing. One thing we were surprised by was the openness of our guide. She asked us what our country thought of North Korea, and wanted to hear all about our elections and political system. At first we thought it was genuine curiosity, but after a while and some pretty dubious claims (come look at this average farmworker's house! everyone in North Korea has a computer!), we suspected that it was designed to "butter us up." That, I think, was my only real problem with the trip. A lot of what I saw surprised and impressed me (boy, could those children play their instruments!), but I never knew if it was all a ruse for the tourists.

GuiA 13y ago
Are you serious? Of course it is a ruse for the tourists- Koryo Tours is not the only operator allowed to run trips there for no reason. What you saw was just a show run by the North Korean government to further their own agenda. The people that you saw are the people that Koryo Tours (and by extension the government) wants you to see. Make no mistake, the vast majority of North Korea is a giant interment camp. This is more like what you would see if you were to go off the shiny beaten track that Koryo tours makes you follow: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1dd_1364601643 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1dd_1364601643
- kitcar 13y ago
  Reminds me 2 stories: 1) the Nazi's set up a "public friendly" concentration camp in the Czech Republic, Theresienstadt (1), which they took officials from the Red Cross to and used in media reports sent to the West which demonstrated the "rich Jewish cultural life." of their camps. 2) Crazy Eddie, an electronics store in the early 1980's which turned out to be a massive investor fraud, (2) had a warehouse filled with boxes so he could have an audit, a necessity to go public - the first row of boxes were filled with merchandise, the rest of the boxes were empty. TL;DR - Humans are trusting people, show them something, and tell them "everything else is just like this thing", and most people will believe you at your word. (1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_concentration_camp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_concentration_ca... (2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Eddie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Eddie
  - justinbeaver 13y ago
    In fairness to Crazy Eddie, they're prices were INSANE!
- kyleblarson 13y ago
  Wow. Dennis Rodman needs to see that.
  - GigabyteCoin 13y ago
    That guy is brain dead. He is embarassing to watch or listen to anymore, unfortunately.
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  While I don't necessarily doubt the claims of widespread poverty and famine, propaganda can go both ways. A 37 second video clip such as that could have been shot in many places in the world, could be entirely fake, etc... I suspect reports like this are closer to reality: http://www.nknews.org/2013/01/life-on-the-north-korean-farm/ http://www.nknews.org/2013/01/life-on-the-north-korean-farm/
  - GuiA 13y ago
    Of course, of course. This paragraph: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine#Current_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine#Current_st... + the articles linked in it are interesting sources.
- EliRivers 13y ago
  Koryo Tours is not the only operator allowed to run trips there for no reason. Are all the other tour companies fake? They must have some seriously dedicated Western actors to spend their lives pretending they went on a tour with one of those fake companies.
- nogridbag 13y ago
  I've recently been strangely interested in DPRK. I watched as many youtube videos as I could find and you're right nearly every tour is the same. If North Korea interests you, I highly recommend the documentary: Camp 14: Total Control Zone. You can find it on Netflix and Youtube. In short, it's about a man born in a labor camp with no exposure to the outside world who managed to escape to China and later South Korea.
- oakaz 13y ago
  Hey buddy, where are you from? I'm asking because I see people in much worse condition in the streets of San Francisco and Oakland every day. In addition; North Korea is not suffering from only their decisions. They and us suffer from the cold war.
  - GuiA 13y ago
    I'm from France, have lived in half a dozen countries and visited about 4 times that amount, currently live in Oakland and work in SF, and I'm having a hard time believing that I just read someone on HN say that living conditions for some people are worse in SF/Oakland than North Korea :)
    - oakaz 13y ago
      I'm also having hard time to believe you have no idea about the starving people in neighbourhoods like tenderloin.
    - oakaz 13y ago
      And; http://www.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&ALID=2K1HRGQK1_Q http://www.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&ALID=2K1... See the heroin addicted family photo.
EliRivers 13y ago
When were you there? I was there in April 2012 and recall both the funfair in Pyongyang and the claim that every family would have a computer (although I recall it being future tense, rather than present). HN contains the most people I've ever found who've been to the DPRK. Must be something in the water :)
- RaphiePS 13y ago
  August 2012, so a little while after you. For all I know, the guide did mean the future (she was a little hard to understand -- our second guide barely spoke English at all! We assumed he was the "minder.") I think it'd be really interesting to compare notes about what happened on the tours. Of course the formal itinerary was probably very similar, but I wonder if comparing some of the "random" occurrences might reveal something? For example, while we were touring a park, we happened upon a group of men having a happy little barbecue and singing. It's possible this was totally genuine, but for all I know it was a setup.
  - EliRivers 13y ago
    Oh yes, big park up on a hill. I was there during a four-day national holiday, and the whole place was heaving with people having barbecues and so forth.

GuiA 13y ago

Are you serious? Of course it is a ruse for the tourists- Koryo Tours is not the only operator allowed to run trips there for no reason. What you saw was just a show run by the North Korean government to further their own agenda. The people that you saw are the people that Koryo Tours (and by extension the government) wants you to see. Make no mistake, the vast majority of North Korea is a giant interment camp. This is more like what you would see if you were to go off the shiny beaten track that Koryo tours makes you follow: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1dd_1364601643 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1dd_1364601643

kitcar 13y ago
Reminds me 2 stories: 1) the Nazi's set up a "public friendly" concentration camp in the Czech Republic, Theresienstadt (1), which they took officials from the Red Cross to and used in media reports sent to the West which demonstrated the "rich Jewish cultural life." of their camps. 2) Crazy Eddie, an electronics store in the early 1980's which turned out to be a massive investor fraud, (2) had a warehouse filled with boxes so he could have an audit, a necessity to go public - the first row of boxes were filled with merchandise, the rest of the boxes were empty. TL;DR - Humans are trusting people, show them something, and tell them "everything else is just like this thing", and most people will believe you at your word. (1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_concentration_camp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_concentration_ca... (2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Eddie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Eddie
- justinbeaver 13y ago
  In fairness to Crazy Eddie, they're prices were INSANE!
kyleblarson 13y ago
Wow. Dennis Rodman needs to see that.
- GigabyteCoin 13y ago
  That guy is brain dead. He is embarassing to watch or listen to anymore, unfortunately.
Mikeb85 13y ago
While I don't necessarily doubt the claims of widespread poverty and famine, propaganda can go both ways. A 37 second video clip such as that could have been shot in many places in the world, could be entirely fake, etc... I suspect reports like this are closer to reality: http://www.nknews.org/2013/01/life-on-the-north-korean-farm/ http://www.nknews.org/2013/01/life-on-the-north-korean-farm/
- GuiA 13y ago
  Of course, of course. This paragraph: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine#Current_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine#Current_st... + the articles linked in it are interesting sources.
EliRivers 13y ago
Koryo Tours is not the only operator allowed to run trips there for no reason. Are all the other tour companies fake? They must have some seriously dedicated Western actors to spend their lives pretending they went on a tour with one of those fake companies.
nogridbag 13y ago
I've recently been strangely interested in DPRK. I watched as many youtube videos as I could find and you're right nearly every tour is the same. If North Korea interests you, I highly recommend the documentary: Camp 14: Total Control Zone. You can find it on Netflix and Youtube. In short, it's about a man born in a labor camp with no exposure to the outside world who managed to escape to China and later South Korea.
oakaz 13y ago
Hey buddy, where are you from? I'm asking because I see people in much worse condition in the streets of San Francisco and Oakland every day. In addition; North Korea is not suffering from only their decisions. They and us suffer from the cold war.
- GuiA 13y ago
  I'm from France, have lived in half a dozen countries and visited about 4 times that amount, currently live in Oakland and work in SF, and I'm having a hard time believing that I just read someone on HN say that living conditions for some people are worse in SF/Oakland than North Korea :)
  - oakaz 13y ago
    I'm also having hard time to believe you have no idea about the starving people in neighbourhoods like tenderloin.
  - oakaz 13y ago
    And; http://www.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&ALID=2K1HRGQK1_Q http://www.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&ALID=2K1... See the heroin addicted family photo.

EliRivers 13y ago

When were you there? I was there in April 2012 and recall both the funfair in Pyongyang and the claim that every family would have a computer (although I recall it being future tense, rather than present). HN contains the most people I've ever found who've been to the DPRK. Must be something in the water :)

RaphiePS 13y ago
August 2012, so a little while after you. For all I know, the guide did mean the future (she was a little hard to understand -- our second guide barely spoke English at all! We assumed he was the "minder.") I think it'd be really interesting to compare notes about what happened on the tours. Of course the formal itinerary was probably very similar, but I wonder if comparing some of the "random" occurrences might reveal something? For example, while we were touring a park, we happened upon a group of men having a happy little barbecue and singing. It's possible this was totally genuine, but for all I know it was a setup.
- EliRivers 13y ago
  Oh yes, big park up on a hill. I was there during a four-day national holiday, and the whole place was heaving with people having barbecues and so forth.