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Hacker News loves North Korea! I can't help but share some videos from my second trip there -- http://joshuaspodek.com/summary-of-north-korea-videos http://jos

by spodek 13y ago

Hacker News loves North Korea! I can't help but share some videos from my second trip there -- http://joshuaspodek.com/summary-of-north-korea-videos http://joshuaspodek.com/summary-of-north-korea-videos. Especially the ones singing with North Koreans in Kim Il Sung Square, playing Frisbee with kids, and all-around reinforcing that the people there are the same as people everywhere, just in different environments.

steveklabnik 13y ago
> all-around reinforcing that the people there are the same as people everywhere This is the thing that's important to remember, and is incredibly difficult with the way our media portrays the DPRK.
- GuiA 13y ago
  Completely agreed- the people there (just like the people in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.) are the same as the people everywhere (albeit exploited and starving). The DPRK government, however, is not too far off from how our media describes it.
  - steveklabnik 13y ago
    I will say that I'm not entirely comfortable with the volume of suggestions of mental illness as a way to discredit the DPRK leadership. I'm not suggesting that they're not in the wrong, but it really, really rubs me the wrong way, for the same way that suggesting the citizens of the DPRK are all branwashed monsters.
    - GuiA 13y ago
      Mmh, perhaps we were thinking of different "mainstream media". "Mental illness" is not the term I would use to describe DPRK leadership, just like I wouldn't use it to describe the 3rd reich's, or Mugabe's. I don't even care about justifying it- the facts speak for themselves about what they do, and it's certainly criminal. As for the people, I absolutely do not believe they are brainwashed monsters- merely that they do not have a choice, and get by as they can. For the ones in the higher levels (i.e. living in Pyongyang), it means doing whatever they can to stay in the favors of those in power and not get executed (remember what happened to the soccer coach when they got disqualified during the world cup?). For the vast majority of the rest, living in the almost-exclusively rural North Korean countryside, it means starving to death and not getting killed by the local military.
      - steveklabnik 13y ago
        I'm speaking of the tendacy to say "Oh man those crazy North Koreans, what wacky thing are they doing today?" The portrayal is one of total irrationality, with no way to figure out what the underlying motivations are. Maybe I just read too much Foucault. ;)
    - NoPiece 13y ago
      Can you cite somewhere the mainstream media actually suggests the citizens of the DPRK are brainwashed monsters? I've never seen anything close to that.
      - steveklabnik 13y ago
        The news generally talks about the leadership, not the people.
RaphiePS 13y ago
Did you go with Koryo Tours? I went the summer before last and it was undoubtedly the most interesting trip I've ever taken. It definitely humanized the people who were previously thought of, just a little bit, as "the enemy." Waitresses giggling while singing karaoke, rowdy schoolboys asking for a picture, soldiers laughing as we smashed into them on the Funfair bumper cars, that sort of thing. One thing we were surprised by was the openness of our guide. She asked us what our country thought of North Korea, and wanted to hear all about our elections and political system. At first we thought it was genuine curiosity, but after a while and some pretty dubious claims (come look at this average farmworker's house! everyone in North Korea has a computer!), we suspected that it was designed to "butter us up." That, I think, was my only real problem with the trip. A lot of what I saw surprised and impressed me (boy, could those children play their instruments!), but I never knew if it was all a ruse for the tourists.
- GuiA 13y ago
  Are you serious? Of course it is a ruse for the tourists- Koryo Tours is not the only operator allowed to run trips there for no reason. What you saw was just a show run by the North Korean government to further their own agenda. The people that you saw are the people that Koryo Tours (and by extension the government) wants you to see. Make no mistake, the vast majority of North Korea is a giant interment camp. This is more like what you would see if you were to go off the shiny beaten track that Koryo tours makes you follow: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1dd_1364601643 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1dd_1364601643
  - kitcar 13y ago
    Reminds me 2 stories: 1) the Nazi's set up a "public friendly" concentration camp in the Czech Republic, Theresienstadt (1), which they took officials from the Red Cross to and used in media reports sent to the West which demonstrated the "rich Jewish cultural life." of their camps. 2) Crazy Eddie, an electronics store in the early 1980's which turned out to be a massive investor fraud, (2) had a warehouse filled with boxes so he could have an audit, a necessity to go public - the first row of boxes were filled with merchandise, the rest of the boxes were empty. TL;DR - Humans are trusting people, show them something, and tell them "everything else is just like this thing", and most people will believe you at your word. (1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_concentration_camp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_concentration_ca... (2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Eddie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Eddie
ngoldbaum 13y ago
What do you think about the fact that by traveling to North Korea you're lining the pockets of regime supporters?
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  He wrote a blog post about that: http://joshuaspodek.com/ethics-visiting-north-korea http://joshuaspodek.com/ethics-visiting-north-korea
  - mseebach 13y ago
    I'd have a lot more respect for his conclusion if he didn't take such pains to relativise and intellectualise it. He went because he wanted to go and nothing is ever without consequences, anyway.
  - spodek 13y ago
    Thanks for posting that link. I'll also add something I put here in my two posts on common questions I got about North Korea -- http://joshuaspodek.com/common-questions-visiting-north-korea-part-1 http://joshuaspodek.com/common-questions-visiting-north-kore... and http://joshuaspodek.com/common-questions-visiting-north-korea-2 http://joshuaspodek.com/common-questions-visiting-north-kore.... > Aren’t you supporting a repressive regime? > Briefly, I know of no popular tourist destination where tourism hasn’t strongly affected the indigenous culture. I believe touring North Korea will increase its trade with the rest of the world and open it up. > Many people have tried many solutions, including aid, sanctions, diplomacy, and military action. None have decreased the regime’s hold. Doing nothing sustains it as well. If you have a better plan, please let me know. The regime has shown itself incredibly stable over several generations. I don't see how tourism makes it more stable. Lack of tourism doesn't hurt them. For anyone who wants to change it, what do they propose that hasn't been tried unsuccessfully repeatedly?
kafkaesque 13y ago
Are the tours done in English? What level of Korean would you say someone (I'm Canadian) needs to be able to get by? I understand there is always a tour guide, who is a government official. But I just want to know if some Korean is recommended. Thank you.
- lewispollard 13y ago
  North Koreans speak a pretty different dialect of Korean than South. Some words are the same, grammar is a little different, a lot of modern words are completely different. As such you wouldn't be expected to know any Korean at all, and even if you knew some, you probably wouldn't be able to use it. At best they would struggle to understand you, at worst they'd be offended and kick you off the tour ;)
justanother 13y ago
Does the trip really begin with bowing to a statue of Kim Il Sung? I don't have any moral problems with visiting the DPRK, but I've always harbored doubt that I could bring myself to do that one thing. Otherwise it looks like a fascinating tour.

by spodek 13y ago

steveklabnik 13y ago

> all-around reinforcing that the people there are the same as people everywhere This is the thing that's important to remember, and is incredibly difficult with the way our media portrays the DPRK.

GuiA 13y ago
Completely agreed- the people there (just like the people in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.) are the same as the people everywhere (albeit exploited and starving). The DPRK government, however, is not too far off from how our media describes it.
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  I will say that I'm not entirely comfortable with the volume of suggestions of mental illness as a way to discredit the DPRK leadership. I'm not suggesting that they're not in the wrong, but it really, really rubs me the wrong way, for the same way that suggesting the citizens of the DPRK are all branwashed monsters.
  - GuiA 13y ago
    Mmh, perhaps we were thinking of different "mainstream media". "Mental illness" is not the term I would use to describe DPRK leadership, just like I wouldn't use it to describe the 3rd reich's, or Mugabe's. I don't even care about justifying it- the facts speak for themselves about what they do, and it's certainly criminal. As for the people, I absolutely do not believe they are brainwashed monsters- merely that they do not have a choice, and get by as they can. For the ones in the higher levels (i.e. living in Pyongyang), it means doing whatever they can to stay in the favors of those in power and not get executed (remember what happened to the soccer coach when they got disqualified during the world cup?). For the vast majority of the rest, living in the almost-exclusively rural North Korean countryside, it means starving to death and not getting killed by the local military.
    - steveklabnik 13y ago
      I'm speaking of the tendacy to say "Oh man those crazy North Koreans, what wacky thing are they doing today?" The portrayal is one of total irrationality, with no way to figure out what the underlying motivations are. Maybe I just read too much Foucault. ;)
  - NoPiece 13y ago
    Can you cite somewhere the mainstream media actually suggests the citizens of the DPRK are brainwashed monsters? I've never seen anything close to that.
    - steveklabnik 13y ago
      The news generally talks about the leadership, not the people.

RaphiePS 13y ago

Did you go with Koryo Tours? I went the summer before last and it was undoubtedly the most interesting trip I've ever taken. It definitely humanized the people who were previously thought of, just a little bit, as "the enemy." Waitresses giggling while singing karaoke, rowdy schoolboys asking for a picture, soldiers laughing as we smashed into them on the Funfair bumper cars, that sort of thing. One thing we were surprised by was the openness of our guide. She asked us what our country thought of North Korea, and wanted to hear all about our elections and political system. At first we thought it was genuine curiosity, but after a while and some pretty dubious claims (come look at this average farmworker's house! everyone in North Korea has a computer!), we suspected that it was designed to "butter us up." That, I think, was my only real problem with the trip. A lot of what I saw surprised and impressed me (boy, could those children play their instruments!), but I never knew if it was all a ruse for the tourists.

GuiA 13y ago
Are you serious? Of course it is a ruse for the tourists- Koryo Tours is not the only operator allowed to run trips there for no reason. What you saw was just a show run by the North Korean government to further their own agenda. The people that you saw are the people that Koryo Tours (and by extension the government) wants you to see. Make no mistake, the vast majority of North Korea is a giant interment camp. This is more like what you would see if you were to go off the shiny beaten track that Koryo tours makes you follow: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1dd_1364601643 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1dd_1364601643
- kitcar 13y ago
  Reminds me 2 stories: 1) the Nazi's set up a "public friendly" concentration camp in the Czech Republic, Theresienstadt (1), which they took officials from the Red Cross to and used in media reports sent to the West which demonstrated the "rich Jewish cultural life." of their camps. 2) Crazy Eddie, an electronics store in the early 1980's which turned out to be a massive investor fraud, (2) had a warehouse filled with boxes so he could have an audit, a necessity to go public - the first row of boxes were filled with merchandise, the rest of the boxes were empty. TL;DR - Humans are trusting people, show them something, and tell them "everything else is just like this thing", and most people will believe you at your word. (1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_concentration_camp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_concentration_ca... (2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Eddie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Eddie

ngoldbaum 13y ago

What do you think about the fact that by traveling to North Korea you're lining the pockets of regime supporters?

steveklabnik 13y ago
He wrote a blog post about that: http://joshuaspodek.com/ethics-visiting-north-korea http://joshuaspodek.com/ethics-visiting-north-korea
- mseebach 13y ago
  I'd have a lot more respect for his conclusion if he didn't take such pains to relativise and intellectualise it. He went because he wanted to go and nothing is ever without consequences, anyway.
- spodek 13y ago
  Thanks for posting that link. I'll also add something I put here in my two posts on common questions I got about North Korea -- http://joshuaspodek.com/common-questions-visiting-north-korea-part-1 http://joshuaspodek.com/common-questions-visiting-north-kore... and http://joshuaspodek.com/common-questions-visiting-north-korea-2 http://joshuaspodek.com/common-questions-visiting-north-kore.... > Aren’t you supporting a repressive regime? > Briefly, I know of no popular tourist destination where tourism hasn’t strongly affected the indigenous culture. I believe touring North Korea will increase its trade with the rest of the world and open it up. > Many people have tried many solutions, including aid, sanctions, diplomacy, and military action. None have decreased the regime’s hold. Doing nothing sustains it as well. If you have a better plan, please let me know. The regime has shown itself incredibly stable over several generations. I don't see how tourism makes it more stable. Lack of tourism doesn't hurt them. For anyone who wants to change it, what do they propose that hasn't been tried unsuccessfully repeatedly?

kafkaesque 13y ago

Are the tours done in English? What level of Korean would you say someone (I'm Canadian) needs to be able to get by? I understand there is always a tour guide, who is a government official. But I just want to know if some Korean is recommended. Thank you.

lewispollard 13y ago
North Koreans speak a pretty different dialect of Korean than South. Some words are the same, grammar is a little different, a lot of modern words are completely different. As such you wouldn't be expected to know any Korean at all, and even if you knew some, you probably wouldn't be able to use it. At best they would struggle to understand you, at worst they'd be offended and kick you off the tour ;)

justanother 13y ago

Does the trip really begin with bowing to a statue of Kim Il Sung? I don't have any moral problems with visiting the DPRK, but I've always harbored doubt that I could bring myself to do that one thing. Otherwise it looks like a fascinating tour.