4 ms·

I mean, I guess this article is true to some degree. But, really, if by 'doing the dishes to do the dishes', doing the dishes takes me twice as long, I don't w

I mean, I guess this article is true to some degree. But, really, if by 'doing the dishes to do the dishes', doing the dishes takes me twice as long, I don't want to do it that way. I'd much prefer to rush through it in half the time, to spend the other part of the time 'really living,' doing something I truly do enjoy or want to do.

tdavis 17y ago
Heh, you're missing the point. There is no difference between "the dishes" and "really living". To suggest otherwise would be to suggest you don't control everything the dishes are and aren't. Which would be silly.
- abstractbill 17y ago
  I guess I'm missing the point too then. The article seemed to be pointing out that it's up to you whether you decide to make doing the dishes an enjoyable activity or a chore. The point rottencupcakes seems to be making is that this might be true, but if doing the dishes in an enjoyable way makes them take longer, then he'd rather just not bother and get them done faster while not enjoying it. This makes some sense to me. Sure, I could find a way to make every activity pleasant - there's always some way in which you can find satisfaction in any task, no matter how menial. And yet I still prefer to spend time figuring out how to just avoid or minimize those activities when I can.
  - gcheong 17y ago
    It's not really about making the activity of doing the dishes pleasant but rather experiencing the act of doing the dishes fully - being mindful of every moment of the experience of doing the dishes both pleasant and unpleasant. It doesn't have to take longer either - you can rush through them and experience that as well it just may be harder to do that.
  - sho 17y ago
    Funnily enough I actually like doing the dishes, and cleaning in general. Unlike almost everything else I ever seem to do, it's a simple task with an unambiguous "end condition", unambiguous and well-defined motivation, and instant payoff with a nice clean kitchen. I like this passage from Iain M. Banks, which sums up my feelings well: He walked for days, stopping at bars and restaurants whenever he felt thirsty, hungry or tired; mostly they were automatic and he was served by little floating trays, though a few were staffed by real people. They seemed less like servants and more like customers who'd taken a notion to help out for a while. 'Of course I don't have to do this,' one middle-aged man said, carefully cleaning the table with a damp cloth. He put the cloth in a little pouch, sat down beside him. 'But look; this table's clean.' He agreed that the table was clean. 'Usually,' the man said. 'I work on alien - no offence - alien religions; Directional Emphasis In Religious Observance; that's my speciality... like when temples or graves or prayers always have to face in a certain direction; that sort of thing? Well, I catalogue, evaluate, compare; I come up with theories and argue with colleagues, here and elsewhere. But... the job's never finished; always new examples, and even the old ones get re-evaluated, and new people come along with new ideas about what you thought was settled... but,' he slapped the table, 'when you clean a table you clean a table. You feel you've done something. It's an achievement.' 'But in the end, it's still just cleaning a table.' 'And therefore does not really signify on the cosmic scale of events?' the man suggested. He smiled in response to the man's grin, 'Well, yes.' 'But then, what does signify? My other work? Is that really important, either? I could try composing wonderful musical works, or day-long entertainment epics, but what would that do? Give people pleasure? My wiping this table gives me pleasure. And people come to a clean table, which gives them pleasure. And anyway,' the man laughed, 'people die; stars die; universes die. What is any achievement, however great it was, once time itself is dead? Of course, if all I did was wipe tables, then of course it would seem a mean and despicable waste of my huge intellectual potential. But because I choose to do it, it gives me pleasure. And,' the man said with a smile, 'it's a good way of meeting people. So; where are you from, anyway?'
radu_floricica 17y ago
Why would it take you twice as long? If anything it will take less time, since you're paying attention. It's not a compromise, not from this point of view at least. It won't _seem_ to take longer either, though this is a more subtle point. When you wash dishes wanting to just get it over with and move on to the next thing you'll be aware of the time almost constantly. Every extra cup you missed the first time is an annoyance. If you pay attention on the other hand you're most likely to achieve "flow" - which is incredibly easy to achieve with such menial activities btw. So not only you'll wash the dishes in most likely the least time possible, you won't even be aware of that time passing.
anigbrowl 17y ago
It doesn't have anything to do with how long it takes - you wash the dishes for as long as it takes for them to be clean. When they're done, they're done. What he's talking about (and I first experienced this while washing dishes, strangely enough) is the startlingly different mental state that develops when you stop thinking. Stop thinking about whether the dishes are clean enough or not, you can see that. Stop thinking about whether it's fun or what you could you would rather be doing, which is only going to distract you from what you're tying to do now. Washing the dishes requires paying attention but not much in the way of cogitation. Instead of splitting yourself in two, just give the mental chatter a rest and look at what you are doing.
greggraham 17y ago
It doesn't necessarily take any longer to live in the moment. It's a matter of where your mind is focused. In fact, if you are focused on what you are doing, you will likely be more efficient and make fewer mistakes. If the task ends up taking longer, it would only be because you did a better job. That is, you might be able to rush through washing the dishes with your mind on the future, but your dishes would still be dirty.

tdavis 17y ago

Heh, you're missing the point. There is no difference between "the dishes" and "really living". To suggest otherwise would be to suggest you don't control everything the dishes are and aren't. Which would be silly.

abstractbill 17y ago
I guess I'm missing the point too then. The article seemed to be pointing out that it's up to you whether you decide to make doing the dishes an enjoyable activity or a chore. The point rottencupcakes seems to be making is that this might be true, but if doing the dishes in an enjoyable way makes them take longer, then he'd rather just not bother and get them done faster while not enjoying it. This makes some sense to me. Sure, I could find a way to make every activity pleasant - there's always some way in which you can find satisfaction in any task, no matter how menial. And yet I still prefer to spend time figuring out how to just avoid or minimize those activities when I can.
- gcheong 17y ago
  It's not really about making the activity of doing the dishes pleasant but rather experiencing the act of doing the dishes fully - being mindful of every moment of the experience of doing the dishes both pleasant and unpleasant. It doesn't have to take longer either - you can rush through them and experience that as well it just may be harder to do that.
- sho 17y ago
  Funnily enough I actually like doing the dishes, and cleaning in general. Unlike almost everything else I ever seem to do, it's a simple task with an unambiguous "end condition", unambiguous and well-defined motivation, and instant payoff with a nice clean kitchen. I like this passage from Iain M. Banks, which sums up my feelings well: He walked for days, stopping at bars and restaurants whenever he felt thirsty, hungry or tired; mostly they were automatic and he was served by little floating trays, though a few were staffed by real people. They seemed less like servants and more like customers who'd taken a notion to help out for a while. 'Of course I don't have to do this,' one middle-aged man said, carefully cleaning the table with a damp cloth. He put the cloth in a little pouch, sat down beside him. 'But look; this table's clean.' He agreed that the table was clean. 'Usually,' the man said. 'I work on alien - no offence - alien religions; Directional Emphasis In Religious Observance; that's my speciality... like when temples or graves or prayers always have to face in a certain direction; that sort of thing? Well, I catalogue, evaluate, compare; I come up with theories and argue with colleagues, here and elsewhere. But... the job's never finished; always new examples, and even the old ones get re-evaluated, and new people come along with new ideas about what you thought was settled... but,' he slapped the table, 'when you clean a table you clean a table. You feel you've done something. It's an achievement.' 'But in the end, it's still just cleaning a table.' 'And therefore does not really signify on the cosmic scale of events?' the man suggested. He smiled in response to the man's grin, 'Well, yes.' 'But then, what does signify? My other work? Is that really important, either? I could try composing wonderful musical works, or day-long entertainment epics, but what would that do? Give people pleasure? My wiping this table gives me pleasure. And people come to a clean table, which gives them pleasure. And anyway,' the man laughed, 'people die; stars die; universes die. What is any achievement, however great it was, once time itself is dead? Of course, if all I did was wipe tables, then of course it would seem a mean and despicable waste of my huge intellectual potential. But because I choose to do it, it gives me pleasure. And,' the man said with a smile, 'it's a good way of meeting people. So; where are you from, anyway?'

radu_floricica 17y ago

Why would it take you twice as long? If anything it will take less time, since you're paying attention. It's not a compromise, not from this point of view at least. It won't _seem_ to take longer either, though this is a more subtle point. When you wash dishes wanting to just get it over with and move on to the next thing you'll be aware of the time almost constantly. Every extra cup you missed the first time is an annoyance. If you pay attention on the other hand you're most likely to achieve "flow" - which is incredibly easy to achieve with such menial activities btw. So not only you'll wash the dishes in most likely the least time possible, you won't even be aware of that time passing.

anigbrowl 17y ago

It doesn't have anything to do with how long it takes - you wash the dishes for as long as it takes for them to be clean. When they're done, they're done. What he's talking about (and I first experienced this while washing dishes, strangely enough) is the startlingly different mental state that develops when you stop thinking. Stop thinking about whether the dishes are clean enough or not, you can see that. Stop thinking about whether it's fun or what you could you would rather be doing, which is only going to distract you from what you're tying to do now. Washing the dishes requires paying attention but not much in the way of cogitation. Instead of splitting yourself in two, just give the mental chatter a rest and look at what you are doing.

greggraham 17y ago

It doesn't necessarily take any longer to live in the moment. It's a matter of where your mind is focused. In fact, if you are focused on what you are doing, you will likely be more efficient and make fewer mistakes. If the task ends up taking longer, it would only be because you did a better job. That is, you might be able to rush through washing the dishes with your mind on the future, but your dishes would still be dirty.