16 ms·

How Much Of Life Are You Actually Living?

132 points by zen53 17y ago

xenophanes 17y ago
One size fits all life philosophy is a little annoying. "If you examine your own life, you'll see what I'm saying is true for you, whoever you are!" Even if it's true for many people, it's not true of all people, and the author makes no effort to distinguish. edit: deleted example paragraph
- bdr 17y ago
  I don't think you understood the post. The point isn't that people look forward to holidays, weekends, or whatever particular things were mentioned. The point is that people are too often living looking forward to something.
  - xenophanes 17y ago
    That is a "one size fits all" claim which isn't true of all people, and he doesn't talk about when it is and isn't true.
bdr 17y ago
I can say that when I'm writing code, I'm writing code. Reading HN, checking email, etc., don't have the same feeling.
- randallsquared 17y ago
  Yeah, one of the things that makes me write code less is that when I'm really coding well, I'm oblivious to most other things, and after a few hours I surface without much memory to show for what I've been doing. It's like I'm less conscious if I'm really in the zone, and that's scary, so I find excuses to put it off or just do a little here and there. Fortunately, I'm a lot better at breaking things down into "a little here or there" than I used to be. :)
- bored 17y ago
  I think you may be confusing what the author is saying with "flow."
  - staunch 17y ago
    Or, maybe flow is just one of the few times we already do what the author is talking about?
radu_floricica 17y ago
Not what I expected, but it was nice.
- rottencupcakes 17y ago
  I mean, I guess this article is true to some degree. But, really, if by 'doing the dishes to do the dishes', doing the dishes takes me twice as long, I don't want to do it that way. I'd much prefer to rush through it in half the time, to spend the other part of the time 'really living,' doing something I truly do enjoy or want to do.
  - tdavis 17y ago
    Heh, you're missing the point. There is no difference between "the dishes" and "really living". To suggest otherwise would be to suggest you don't control everything the dishes are and aren't. Which would be silly.
    - abstractbill 17y ago
      I guess I'm missing the point too then. The article seemed to be pointing out that it's up to you whether you decide to make doing the dishes an enjoyable activity or a chore. The point rottencupcakes seems to be making is that this might be true, but if doing the dishes in an enjoyable way makes them take longer, then he'd rather just not bother and get them done faster while not enjoying it. This makes some sense to me. Sure, I could find a way to make every activity pleasant - there's always some way in which you can find satisfaction in any task, no matter how menial. And yet I still prefer to spend time figuring out how to just avoid or minimize those activities when I can.
      - gcheong 17y ago
        It's not really about making the activity of doing the dishes pleasant but rather experiencing the act of doing the dishes fully - being mindful of every moment of the experience of doing the dishes both pleasant and unpleasant. It doesn't have to take longer either - you can rush through them and experience that as well it just may be harder to do that.
xenonite 17y ago
thanks for the post. reminds me of a time I was totally relaxed, did what I had to, and liked what I did. It is a great feeling to focus just on single things. What helps are repeating rituals. Like brushing teeth right before going to bed. Therefore one is able to switch different tasks more easily and separated.
emontero1 17y ago
As with most things in life, too much of anything is generally a bad thing. If one constantly lives in the moment, forsaking entirely the idea of a future and its implications, then the chances of amounting to anything in life are greatly reduced, since the ability to look forward and hope for a better reality are tightly entwined with the concept of planning. How can one develop both personally and professionally without looking ahead? On the other hand, if one concentrates exclusively on the future, neglecting the minutiae of everyday life, one will, invariably, miss life altogether. I think it's just a matter of perspective. Balance is key.
- tdavis 17y ago
  You say it's all a matter of perspective, yet you worry about "amounting to something"? You look forward and "hope" for a better reality? These are contradictory notions. When you "hope for a better reality" you suggest that reality is something that happens to you, which in Zen terms (of which this article mostly is) isn't the case. It's more like something you "happen" to yourself. Since you are it. That being said, if it is your desire to play the game (as it is mine at present), then yes, looking forward and planning for the future are important. Experience points must be gained to get to the next level; missions must be completed ;)
- dmm 17y ago
  Planning for the future is an aspect of the present moment. Kind of like children. They are our future but they exist now, in the present moment.
  - 10ren 17y ago
    Can one actually "imagine the future" in the mindful way the article suggests? Or is that a contradiction in terms? One resolution: One can imagine an abstract model of a concrete physical object (e.g. a lever; a geometry; a count of objects) and then ignore the concrete reality, and become so fully immersed in the abstraction that one loses track of time. I suggest that this is a form of mindfulness. Thinking about an abstraction is not necessarily mindful: it can be done in a non-mindful way by being constantly distracted by other concrete objects or other abstract models. Mindfulness is flow. The "future" is a abstract model, and so the above also applies to it. For human beings, these imagined interior worlds - be they abstractions of objects or of the future - as just as much a reality as the physical world. I suggest that we naturally and instinctively apprehend them in the same way, and both can be done in mindfulness - or not.
tdavis 17y ago
The irony is he tries to make a Zen point by saying "people are doing X too often" or "people are doing X wrong" which is entirely impossible, of course, because people can't do anything "too often" or "wrong". They're already doing precisely what they want at the exact interval they choose! Zen isn't teaching anything better than what we have; it isn't an improvement. Technically speaking, Zen isn't teaching anything, period. But that's the point. Articles like these are good indicators that a person is starting to "get" Zen, a little bit. And that's great. Good luck Glen, and congratulations on choosing to live more in the moment. And congratulations in advance for whatever reality you choose to create next :)
voidpointer 17y ago
Sounds a bit like what I was told this guy wrote about: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0525948023 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0525948023 Haven't read it or anything like it yet. Nevertheless, the idea that one might be caught up in planning and looking forward and forgetting the joy of the moment about that doesn't sound too far fetched to me...
dgallagher 17y ago
Do you live to work, or do you work to live?
jasonkester 17y ago
I notice a huge difference in how much "stuff" happens in my life when I'm traveling vs. when I have a job. Home life is measured in weeks and months, and when you ask somebody what's new, they'll say "not much" and maybe tell you what they did last weekend. Or the weekend before that. Road life is measured in hours. I'll find myself telling somebody a story of this amazing thing that happened earlier on my trip, possibly in another country, and suddenly realize that it was only 3 days ago. A month of travelling compresses so much life into such a short span that it's really strange checking in with friends back in the world that can account for that same month with a single sentence. There are times when life in the 'states can approximate that (the first weeks of a new startup for instance), but it's so easy to drop back into steady state where life is measured in calendar time.
- matthewking 17y ago
  I couldn't agree with this more, what is life really about at the end of the day? Exploring the world, adventures and meeting people from all cultures and corners of the earth would be my best answer. Unfortunately we're somewhat trapped in by the slave driver that is money, when you eventually return from travels to settle down, you need to adhere to normal society. Hopefully the startup will fix that, otherwise I'll just have to do it on the cheap and worry about money later ;)
  - jasonkester 17y ago
    Remember this: Ramen Profitable == Beach Profitable If your service can bring in $500/month, you can pretty much coast indefinitely in a place like Thailand, assuming you completely shut down your life back home. $1000 profit/month will get you to the point where you can travel from place to place. Double that again and you'll actually build your savings while dirtbagging around the world.
    - matthewking 17y ago
      I am practically there already but I have a few things to sort out at home first, so may have to go an extra mile. My ultimate goal would be to buy a cheapish yacht (they're cheaper than most people think) and sail around the world, like this guy: www.bigoceans.com - once you've got the yacht its not that expensive, I think that would be the ultimate freedom for me, and you can visit places that the average tourist can't get to! Saying that, any kind of travel is good. I see you live by your word!
maheshs 17y ago
It was a nice read!!! I am having the problem of not leaving into now. While working i always thinking about other fun stuff and while fun activity i always thinking about my tasks. Does others also having the same issue, and any technique to improve this.
jblondon 17y ago
I'm not sure I agree. Consider a metaphor. Transfer your weight onto one foot while leaning forward, in order that your center of gravity is temporarily over-extended, while simultaneously putting your free foot out to 'catch' yourself from falling. Now rinse and repeat. Thus: walking. If you want to walk faster, lean further forward. It's like watching a Segway, but with articulation. All willful locomotion -- whether bipedal or otherwise -- depends on initiating a controlled disequilibrium which ultimately results in a prefered new equlibrium. So it is with looking forward to things in life. Planning for the future. Saving for a rainy day. Working hard today for a better tomorrow. The ability to conceptualize the _consequences_ of a temporarily destabilizing disequilibrium is what makes man master of the world. So 'living in the future', far from being a modern malaise, is precisely what enables progress, advancement and civilisation. That doesn't mean that the disequilibrium is always comfortable while it's happening. Indeed, our atavistic selves usually counsel rest in the absence of an urgent limbic call to action -- when we're not starving or physically threatened, say. But meanwhile, the higher brain recognises that the competion for scarce resources in a hostile world is relentless. And that means running to keep up -- however uncomfortable that might sometimes feel. Indeed, deferred gratification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_gratification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_gratification) is analysed as an indicator for intelligence and emotional maturity. And as for the dishes, whatever he may claim, Thich Nhat Hanh's superordinate goal when he washes the dishes is to have clean dishes. If he can enter a state of flow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)) while doing so -- whether because he has phenomenal mental self-control, or an unusually quiet life -- then so be it. But most people can't, and would find their "cognitive surplus" (the brain parts left unused while dishes are being done) better invested in preparatory mental activity, or contructively anticipating the future. And if he got the dishes done quickly rather than dawdling and daydreaming, he'd be back at the table to enjoy more time with his dinner guests, in whose gratitude he will find favour, and through whose company he will obtain the familiar state of flow which most humans achieve through routine social interaction.
stavrianos 17y ago
"doing the dishes to do the dishes" sounds all well and good, but it's predicated on the idea that all activities are equally worth doing, because they're all living. Which is ridiculous. Consider "sitting there while the monk does the dishes to sit there while the monk does the dishes", or "be horribly tortured to be horribly tortured". Not all activities are of equal value, and it's natural to want to maximize the high payoffs (time with family, solving good problems, sex, etc) and minimize the low (dishes).

132 points by zen53 17y ago

One size fits all life philosophy is a little annoying. "If you examine your own life, you'll see what I'm saying is true for you, whoever you are!" Even if it's true for many people, it's not true of all people, and the author makes no effort to distinguish. edit: deleted example paragraph

bdr 17y ago
I don't think you understood the post. The point isn't that people look forward to holidays, weekends, or whatever particular things were mentioned. The point is that people are too often living looking forward to something.
- xenophanes 17y ago
  That is a "one size fits all" claim which isn't true of all people, and he doesn't talk about when it is and isn't true.

bdr 17y ago

I can say that when I'm writing code, I'm writing code. Reading HN, checking email, etc., don't have the same feeling.

randallsquared 17y ago
Yeah, one of the things that makes me write code less is that when I'm really coding well, I'm oblivious to most other things, and after a few hours I surface without much memory to show for what I've been doing. It's like I'm less conscious if I'm really in the zone, and that's scary, so I find excuses to put it off or just do a little here and there. Fortunately, I'm a lot better at breaking things down into "a little here or there" than I used to be. :)
bored 17y ago
I think you may be confusing what the author is saying with "flow."
- staunch 17y ago
  Or, maybe flow is just one of the few times we already do what the author is talking about?

radu_floricica 17y ago

Not what I expected, but it was nice.

rottencupcakes 17y ago
I mean, I guess this article is true to some degree. But, really, if by 'doing the dishes to do the dishes', doing the dishes takes me twice as long, I don't want to do it that way. I'd much prefer to rush through it in half the time, to spend the other part of the time 'really living,' doing something I truly do enjoy or want to do.
- tdavis 17y ago
  Heh, you're missing the point. There is no difference between "the dishes" and "really living". To suggest otherwise would be to suggest you don't control everything the dishes are and aren't. Which would be silly.
  - abstractbill 17y ago
    I guess I'm missing the point too then. The article seemed to be pointing out that it's up to you whether you decide to make doing the dishes an enjoyable activity or a chore. The point rottencupcakes seems to be making is that this might be true, but if doing the dishes in an enjoyable way makes them take longer, then he'd rather just not bother and get them done faster while not enjoying it. This makes some sense to me. Sure, I could find a way to make every activity pleasant - there's always some way in which you can find satisfaction in any task, no matter how menial. And yet I still prefer to spend time figuring out how to just avoid or minimize those activities when I can.
    - gcheong 17y ago
      It's not really about making the activity of doing the dishes pleasant but rather experiencing the act of doing the dishes fully - being mindful of every moment of the experience of doing the dishes both pleasant and unpleasant. It doesn't have to take longer either - you can rush through them and experience that as well it just may be harder to do that.

xenonite 17y ago

thanks for the post. reminds me of a time I was totally relaxed, did what I had to, and liked what I did. It is a great feeling to focus just on single things. What helps are repeating rituals. Like brushing teeth right before going to bed. Therefore one is able to switch different tasks more easily and separated.

emontero1 17y ago

As with most things in life, too much of anything is generally a bad thing. If one constantly lives in the moment, forsaking entirely the idea of a future and its implications, then the chances of amounting to anything in life are greatly reduced, since the ability to look forward and hope for a better reality are tightly entwined with the concept of planning. How can one develop both personally and professionally without looking ahead? On the other hand, if one concentrates exclusively on the future, neglecting the minutiae of everyday life, one will, invariably, miss life altogether. I think it's just a matter of perspective. Balance is key.

tdavis 17y ago
You say it's all a matter of perspective, yet you worry about "amounting to something"? You look forward and "hope" for a better reality? These are contradictory notions. When you "hope for a better reality" you suggest that reality is something that happens to you, which in Zen terms (of which this article mostly is) isn't the case. It's more like something you "happen" to yourself. Since you are it. That being said, if it is your desire to play the game (as it is mine at present), then yes, looking forward and planning for the future are important. Experience points must be gained to get to the next level; missions must be completed ;)
dmm 17y ago
Planning for the future is an aspect of the present moment. Kind of like children. They are our future but they exist now, in the present moment.
- 10ren 17y ago
  Can one actually "imagine the future" in the mindful way the article suggests? Or is that a contradiction in terms? One resolution: One can imagine an abstract model of a concrete physical object (e.g. a lever; a geometry; a count of objects) and then ignore the concrete reality, and become so fully immersed in the abstraction that one loses track of time. I suggest that this is a form of mindfulness. Thinking about an abstraction is not necessarily mindful: it can be done in a non-mindful way by being constantly distracted by other concrete objects or other abstract models. Mindfulness is flow. The "future" is a abstract model, and so the above also applies to it. For human beings, these imagined interior worlds - be they abstractions of objects or of the future - as just as much a reality as the physical world. I suggest that we naturally and instinctively apprehend them in the same way, and both can be done in mindfulness - or not.

tdavis 17y ago

The irony is he tries to make a Zen point by saying "people are doing X too often" or "people are doing X wrong" which is entirely impossible, of course, because people can't do anything "too often" or "wrong". They're already doing precisely what they want at the exact interval they choose! Zen isn't teaching anything better than what we have; it isn't an improvement. Technically speaking, Zen isn't teaching anything, period. But that's the point. Articles like these are good indicators that a person is starting to "get" Zen, a little bit. And that's great. Good luck Glen, and congratulations on choosing to live more in the moment. And congratulations in advance for whatever reality you choose to create next :)

voidpointer 17y ago

Sounds a bit like what I was told this guy wrote about: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0525948023 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0525948023 Haven't read it or anything like it yet. Nevertheless, the idea that one might be caught up in planning and looking forward and forgetting the joy of the moment about that doesn't sound too far fetched to me...

dgallagher 17y ago

Do you live to work, or do you work to live?

jasonkester 17y ago

I notice a huge difference in how much "stuff" happens in my life when I'm traveling vs. when I have a job. Home life is measured in weeks and months, and when you ask somebody what's new, they'll say "not much" and maybe tell you what they did last weekend. Or the weekend before that. Road life is measured in hours. I'll find myself telling somebody a story of this amazing thing that happened earlier on my trip, possibly in another country, and suddenly realize that it was only 3 days ago. A month of travelling compresses so much life into such a short span that it's really strange checking in with friends back in the world that can account for that same month with a single sentence. There are times when life in the 'states can approximate that (the first weeks of a new startup for instance), but it's so easy to drop back into steady state where life is measured in calendar time.

matthewking 17y ago
I couldn't agree with this more, what is life really about at the end of the day? Exploring the world, adventures and meeting people from all cultures and corners of the earth would be my best answer. Unfortunately we're somewhat trapped in by the slave driver that is money, when you eventually return from travels to settle down, you need to adhere to normal society. Hopefully the startup will fix that, otherwise I'll just have to do it on the cheap and worry about money later ;)
- jasonkester 17y ago
  Remember this: Ramen Profitable == Beach Profitable If your service can bring in $500/month, you can pretty much coast indefinitely in a place like Thailand, assuming you completely shut down your life back home. $1000 profit/month will get you to the point where you can travel from place to place. Double that again and you'll actually build your savings while dirtbagging around the world.
  - matthewking 17y ago
    I am practically there already but I have a few things to sort out at home first, so may have to go an extra mile. My ultimate goal would be to buy a cheapish yacht (they're cheaper than most people think) and sail around the world, like this guy: www.bigoceans.com - once you've got the yacht its not that expensive, I think that would be the ultimate freedom for me, and you can visit places that the average tourist can't get to! Saying that, any kind of travel is good. I see you live by your word!

maheshs 17y ago

It was a nice read!!! I am having the problem of not leaving into now. While working i always thinking about other fun stuff and while fun activity i always thinking about my tasks. Does others also having the same issue, and any technique to improve this.

jblondon 17y ago

I'm not sure I agree. Consider a metaphor. Transfer your weight onto one foot while leaning forward, in order that your center of gravity is temporarily over-extended, while simultaneously putting your free foot out to 'catch' yourself from falling. Now rinse and repeat. Thus: walking. If you want to walk faster, lean further forward. It's like watching a Segway, but with articulation. All willful locomotion -- whether bipedal or otherwise -- depends on initiating a controlled disequilibrium which ultimately results in a prefered new equlibrium. So it is with looking forward to things in life. Planning for the future. Saving for a rainy day. Working hard today for a better tomorrow. The ability to conceptualize the _consequences_ of a temporarily destabilizing disequilibrium is what makes man master of the world. So 'living in the future', far from being a modern malaise, is precisely what enables progress, advancement and civilisation. That doesn't mean that the disequilibrium is always comfortable while it's happening. Indeed, our atavistic selves usually counsel rest in the absence of an urgent limbic call to action -- when we're not starving or physically threatened, say. But meanwhile, the higher brain recognises that the competion for scarce resources in a hostile world is relentless. And that means running to keep up -- however uncomfortable that might sometimes feel. Indeed, deferred gratification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_gratification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_gratification) is analysed as an indicator for intelligence and emotional maturity. And as for the dishes, whatever he may claim, Thich Nhat Hanh's superordinate goal when he washes the dishes is to have clean dishes. If he can enter a state of flow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)) while doing so -- whether because he has phenomenal mental self-control, or an unusually quiet life -- then so be it. But most people can't, and would find their "cognitive surplus" (the brain parts left unused while dishes are being done) better invested in preparatory mental activity, or contructively anticipating the future. And if he got the dishes done quickly rather than dawdling and daydreaming, he'd be back at the table to enjoy more time with his dinner guests, in whose gratitude he will find favour, and through whose company he will obtain the familiar state of flow which most humans achieve through routine social interaction.

stavrianos 17y ago

"doing the dishes to do the dishes" sounds all well and good, but it's predicated on the idea that all activities are equally worth doing, because they're all living. Which is ridiculous. Consider "sitting there while the monk does the dishes to sit there while the monk does the dishes", or "be horribly tortured to be horribly tortured". Not all activities are of equal value, and it's natural to want to maximize the high payoffs (time with family, solving good problems, sex, etc) and minimize the low (dishes).