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I strongly disagree. US schools are pretty bad on fundamentals. Period. Talking to parents who are here from Asia (for business, grad school), they are shocked

by dba7dba 13y ago

I strongly disagree. US schools are pretty bad on fundamentals. Period. Talking to parents who are here from Asia (for business, grad school), they are shocked how behind the grades are compared to their home countries. And about the underachieving students supposedly not trying harder because they see college educated people applying for fast food jobs, I think that's just not true. And if they really do think that way, I'm sorry but they deserve the poverty they are stuck with. I have history of an entire nation to to prove that people don't stop (and should not stop) studying in school because they see other college grads stuck with low paying or no jobs. S Korea at end of the Korean War (1950-53) was a complete disaster. There were college educated kids in 50's, 60's and 70's but no jobs for them. The country was still largely surviving on foreign aid. The job market was bad enough that when S Korean govt recruited people to go to West Germany to work as 'miners' (mainly to earn foreign currency) in 1963, 2894 men applied. Out of 2894 men, 375 got the job. Basically 1 was selected out of 7. The competition was so fierce that names of who got in were published on national newspaper. Over 60% had completed high school or tertiary education. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Germany http://www.zum.de/whkmla/sp/0708/giyoon/giyoon1.html http://www.zum.de/whkmla/sp/0708/giyoon/giyoon1.html So did the south Korean kids in school stop studying because they saw how college grads were so desperate for jobs that they were willing to go abroad to work as coal miners? Of course not. If the American kids really are afraid of ending up like the other college grads being stuck without jobs, they should study harder, be it in college or vocational training etc.

VLM 13y ago
"I think that's just not true." LOL next time you're at a restaurant ask your waitress what her bachelors degree was in. My favorite one did her student teaching portion of her ed degree at my son's school. We massively overproduce early childhood grads.
- sanskritabelt 13y ago
  I don't think there's any reason to (potentially) embarrass the wait staff. Always be polite, and tip big.
  - dba7dba 13y ago
    True. I never complain to wait staff. No matter what comes out, I just eat quietly and leave after paying for food and tips. Now if only my wife would just do the same...
    - sanskritabelt 13y ago
      That's not what I said at all???
VLM 13y ago
"If the American kids really are afraid of ending up like the other college grads being stuck without jobs, they should study harder, " This is hilarious and can be compared to: There are thirty NBA teams and twenty million teenagers so the obvious national educational and employment strategy should be to tell all twenty million teens to just practice harder if they don't want to end up unemployed. If as per the pigeonhole principle, if the numbers don't match up, just handwave away the unlucky ones, let them eat cake.
- dba7dba 13y ago
  Using example of NBA doesn't really work imo because of the skewed statistics. No one is saying high school students shouldn’t study because only a very small percentage will ultimately earn PhDs. That's not what the OP and my comment is about. What handwaving? An entire generation S Koreans in 1950 - 80 basically 'studied' their way out of extreme poverty. They have no oil or any other useful natural resource to speak of. Obviously studying hard in school wasn't the only reason as they got a few other lucky breaks, but ultimately it was the education that got them out of poverty.
  - VLM 13y ago
    "but ultimately it was the education that got them out of poverty" How? What is your economic system wide reaction mechanism? I think the problem is confusing macro and micro. On a micro level yes one individual can rise above others in that way. However, on a macro level diverting capital out of productive enterprises into merely increasing existing underemployment stats makes the overall situation worse for everyone, not better. I'm not saying education is worthless, or underemployment should be 0% (or maybe it should?). Think about this analogy. Maximum productivity resulting in maximum wealth for everyone involved happens when a factory produces 1000 cars. I know, lets produce 1500 cars, and also increase prices 10% per year, then having those unsold cars sit on the lot will make society as a whole wealthier because ... err, I guess it makes society as a whole substantially poorer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying producing 1500 is a disaster therefore producing 500 would be genius, that would also be pretty bad. I'm also not making any moral or ethical or environmental value judgement about manufacturing cars. Its basically the economic broken window fallacy. Another way to look at it, is if you know about control system theory, taking an unstable system and pushing it hard in an even more unstable direction is not going to work well. WRT the Korean example, as a cheap hobby or time filling past time, there's nothing inherently wrong with education, it didn't hold them back as far as I know. Nobody was spending money on liberal arts professors instead of spending the same money on welding robots and conveyor belts. Not that there's anything wrong with the liberal arts and making life worth living, just that it is orthogonal to economic productivity.
michaelochurch 13y ago
And about the underachieving students supposedly not trying harder because they see college educated people applying for fast food jobs, I think that's just not true. And if they really do think that way, I'm sorry but they deserve the poverty they are stuck with. Why do they deserve it? How is unrewarded work a virtue? Why should people who have very little when it comes to most resources (including emotional and intellectual energy) be shamed for choosing not to invest it in something that appears fruitless to them? Because society might right itself in 20 years and have appropriate roles for them? I'm not saying "education is worthless". Far from it. For privileged people like most of us, it delivers a lot of value (objective and subjective). However, most people who are deep in poverty see no way out in it, and I don't think they're wrong (for them).
- dba7dba 13y ago
  Hm, ok maybe I was being a little harsh. Yes no one deserves to be stuck in poverty. But if there is a will, there is a way.

by dba7dba 13y ago

VLM 13y ago

"I think that's just not true." LOL next time you're at a restaurant ask your waitress what her bachelors degree was in. My favorite one did her student teaching portion of her ed degree at my son's school. We massively overproduce early childhood grads.

sanskritabelt 13y ago
I don't think there's any reason to (potentially) embarrass the wait staff. Always be polite, and tip big.
- dba7dba 13y ago
  True. I never complain to wait staff. No matter what comes out, I just eat quietly and leave after paying for food and tips. Now if only my wife would just do the same...
  - sanskritabelt 13y ago
    That's not what I said at all???

VLM 13y ago

"If the American kids really are afraid of ending up like the other college grads being stuck without jobs, they should study harder, " This is hilarious and can be compared to: There are thirty NBA teams and twenty million teenagers so the obvious national educational and employment strategy should be to tell all twenty million teens to just practice harder if they don't want to end up unemployed. If as per the pigeonhole principle, if the numbers don't match up, just handwave away the unlucky ones, let them eat cake.

dba7dba 13y ago
Using example of NBA doesn't really work imo because of the skewed statistics. No one is saying high school students shouldn’t study because only a very small percentage will ultimately earn PhDs. That's not what the OP and my comment is about. What handwaving? An entire generation S Koreans in 1950 - 80 basically 'studied' their way out of extreme poverty. They have no oil or any other useful natural resource to speak of. Obviously studying hard in school wasn't the only reason as they got a few other lucky breaks, but ultimately it was the education that got them out of poverty.
- VLM 13y ago
  "but ultimately it was the education that got them out of poverty" How? What is your economic system wide reaction mechanism? I think the problem is confusing macro and micro. On a micro level yes one individual can rise above others in that way. However, on a macro level diverting capital out of productive enterprises into merely increasing existing underemployment stats makes the overall situation worse for everyone, not better. I'm not saying education is worthless, or underemployment should be 0% (or maybe it should?). Think about this analogy. Maximum productivity resulting in maximum wealth for everyone involved happens when a factory produces 1000 cars. I know, lets produce 1500 cars, and also increase prices 10% per year, then having those unsold cars sit on the lot will make society as a whole wealthier because ... err, I guess it makes society as a whole substantially poorer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying producing 1500 is a disaster therefore producing 500 would be genius, that would also be pretty bad. I'm also not making any moral or ethical or environmental value judgement about manufacturing cars. Its basically the economic broken window fallacy. Another way to look at it, is if you know about control system theory, taking an unstable system and pushing it hard in an even more unstable direction is not going to work well. WRT the Korean example, as a cheap hobby or time filling past time, there's nothing inherently wrong with education, it didn't hold them back as far as I know. Nobody was spending money on liberal arts professors instead of spending the same money on welding robots and conveyor belts. Not that there's anything wrong with the liberal arts and making life worth living, just that it is orthogonal to economic productivity.

michaelochurch 13y ago

And about the underachieving students supposedly not trying harder because they see college educated people applying for fast food jobs, I think that's just not true. And if they really do think that way, I'm sorry but they deserve the poverty they are stuck with. Why do they deserve it? How is unrewarded work a virtue? Why should people who have very little when it comes to most resources (including emotional and intellectual energy) be shamed for choosing not to invest it in something that appears fruitless to them? Because society might right itself in 20 years and have appropriate roles for them? I'm not saying "education is worthless". Far from it. For privileged people like most of us, it delivers a lot of value (objective and subjective). However, most people who are deep in poverty see no way out in it, and I don't think they're wrong (for them).

dba7dba 13y ago
Hm, ok maybe I was being a little harsh. Yes no one deserves to be stuck in poverty. But if there is a will, there is a way.