4 ms·

"""Some 7% of U.S. students reached the top two scientific performance levels, compared with 17% in Finland and an amazing 27% in Shanghai.""" I'm not normally

"""Some 7% of U.S. students reached the top two scientific performance levels, compared with 17% in Finland and an amazing 27% in Shanghai.""" I'm not normally a stickler for this kind of statistical bullshit, but this is particularly bad. They compared a country of 300mil with a country of 5mil with a city of 14mil. I think the percentages are interesting, but this is ACTUALLY comparing apples and oranges. I'd be interested to see how Boston (or whatever US city with the highest "scientific performance level") does in that mix though.

VLM 13y ago
It would be interesting to discuss the target percentage. Yes I'm sure 100% would be nice in an abstract sense, but there are a lot of things that would be nice. I can assure you that my favorite waitress having a bachelors degree in early childhood education doesn't make my food arrive at the table any quicker, or her recitation of scripts sound any better. Or my favorite coffee barista who has some liberal arts degree or another doesn't make coffee any better than the illegal who can't read or write. Perhaps if all lunchroom ladies were competent FPGA programmers then they would shovel canned peaches onto trays better, or something. So I'm not seeing how the hotel desk clerk in Shanghai having memorized the periodic table is going to improve anything in any way.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  You're rather nastily assuming that people who currently hold low-level jobs should hold those jobs, for their entire careers, and that therefore, any education unnecessary for their menial jobs is unnecessary for them as human beings. That's one small step for illogic, one giant leap for inhumanity to other people.
  - VLM 13y ago
    One fundamental problem is massive underemployment. Another is a failing educational system in bubble mode means no one on the planet pays more while getting less. Another problem (related to #2) is the monetary costs of the failing educational system are financially crippling our youth and the guaranteed loans that will never be paid back will financially cripple everyone else. So your solution is individuals who are headed for a cliff, should step on the gas and to fling over it faster. After all, if it doesn't work, keep trying it over and over until it does. And I'm the inhumane one LOL. I will say if a system is inevitably crashing, then its best to accelerate the process so as to reach the recovery quicker. The sooner we have a big crash, the sooner we can pick up the pieces and start living again. So in that way you are correct, the best thing kids can do "for everyone" is financially immolate themselves, because in the long run that'll bring on the crash (and hopefully, recovery) quicker. If that is your analysis then by its conditions, I admit you are correct, under those specific conditions, although I'd hate to be one of the individuals being crushed for the betterment of everyone else.
- nzp 13y ago
  As far as I know, PISA tries to test for understanding, not things like memorizing the periodic table. The reading test is specially aimed at this--do these children actually understand the meaning of what they just read. These kinds of skills have huge impact on democratic (or would be democratic) societies. You know, do people actually understand what the press is writing, what the politicians are saying, etc.
  - VLM 13y ago
    That is a well written paragraph explaining the test goals; I was just using four words for brevity. Also to some extent for comic effect, although unfortunately most management theory as applied seems oriented around workers, especially low level workers, not understanding and thinking about meanings, but basically being human shaped programmed repetitive robots, and any robot getting out of line is a threat to be removed. "You know, do people actually understand what the press is writing, what the politicians are saying, etc." So.. in a consumer based economy there would be a strong financial incentive in promoting failure, so advertising is more effective. Or, in a democracy or psuedo-democracy or more likely in a republic, all professional politicians would find ignorant unthinking citizens to be in their best interest at all times. So... what group could be put in charge who wouldn't want citizens to be ignorant? This is a political problem that hasn't been solved yet.
    - nzp 13y ago
      Absolutely, I agree. No group, every ruling structure benefits from the ignorance of the masses. I was replying under the impression you are arguing against the need for everyone to be properly educated (in the sense of high level of literacy, critical thinking, reasoning etc. all the things PISA is supposedly designed to measure). I apologise if that impression was wrong. It's true that I was a little confused by your post and the one you were replying to, mostly because of no fault of yours or the parent's but because I'm not entirely sure what the percentages of "highest scientific performance" that the article is referring to mean.

VLM 13y ago

It would be interesting to discuss the target percentage. Yes I'm sure 100% would be nice in an abstract sense, but there are a lot of things that would be nice. I can assure you that my favorite waitress having a bachelors degree in early childhood education doesn't make my food arrive at the table any quicker, or her recitation of scripts sound any better. Or my favorite coffee barista who has some liberal arts degree or another doesn't make coffee any better than the illegal who can't read or write. Perhaps if all lunchroom ladies were competent FPGA programmers then they would shovel canned peaches onto trays better, or something. So I'm not seeing how the hotel desk clerk in Shanghai having memorized the periodic table is going to improve anything in any way.

eli_gottlieb 13y ago
You're rather nastily assuming that people who currently hold low-level jobs should hold those jobs, for their entire careers, and that therefore, any education unnecessary for their menial jobs is unnecessary for them as human beings. That's one small step for illogic, one giant leap for inhumanity to other people.
- VLM 13y ago
  One fundamental problem is massive underemployment. Another is a failing educational system in bubble mode means no one on the planet pays more while getting less. Another problem (related to #2) is the monetary costs of the failing educational system are financially crippling our youth and the guaranteed loans that will never be paid back will financially cripple everyone else. So your solution is individuals who are headed for a cliff, should step on the gas and to fling over it faster. After all, if it doesn't work, keep trying it over and over until it does. And I'm the inhumane one LOL. I will say if a system is inevitably crashing, then its best to accelerate the process so as to reach the recovery quicker. The sooner we have a big crash, the sooner we can pick up the pieces and start living again. So in that way you are correct, the best thing kids can do "for everyone" is financially immolate themselves, because in the long run that'll bring on the crash (and hopefully, recovery) quicker. If that is your analysis then by its conditions, I admit you are correct, under those specific conditions, although I'd hate to be one of the individuals being crushed for the betterment of everyone else.
nzp 13y ago
As far as I know, PISA tries to test for understanding, not things like memorizing the periodic table. The reading test is specially aimed at this--do these children actually understand the meaning of what they just read. These kinds of skills have huge impact on democratic (or would be democratic) societies. You know, do people actually understand what the press is writing, what the politicians are saying, etc.
- VLM 13y ago
  That is a well written paragraph explaining the test goals; I was just using four words for brevity. Also to some extent for comic effect, although unfortunately most management theory as applied seems oriented around workers, especially low level workers, not understanding and thinking about meanings, but basically being human shaped programmed repetitive robots, and any robot getting out of line is a threat to be removed. "You know, do people actually understand what the press is writing, what the politicians are saying, etc." So.. in a consumer based economy there would be a strong financial incentive in promoting failure, so advertising is more effective. Or, in a democracy or psuedo-democracy or more likely in a republic, all professional politicians would find ignorant unthinking citizens to be in their best interest at all times. So... what group could be put in charge who wouldn't want citizens to be ignorant? This is a political problem that hasn't been solved yet.
  - nzp 13y ago
    Absolutely, I agree. No group, every ruling structure benefits from the ignorance of the masses. I was replying under the impression you are arguing against the need for everyone to be properly educated (in the sense of high level of literacy, critical thinking, reasoning etc. all the things PISA is supposedly designed to measure). I apologise if that impression was wrong. It's true that I was a little confused by your post and the one you were replying to, mostly because of no fault of yours or the parent's but because I'm not entirely sure what the percentages of "highest scientific performance" that the article is referring to mean.